Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
Welcome to 'Stripping Off with Matt Haycox,' where we bare it all on business, money, and life. Get ready to peel back the layers of success with entrepreneur, investor, funding expert, and mentor with over 20 years of experience building and growing businesses, Matt Haycox.
Tune into steamy conversations with industry titans, celebrities, and successful entrepreneurs as they strip down their stories of triumphs, setbacks, and the raw realities of their journey to the top. Matt is going down on business, money, and life, and will take DMCs to new heights!
Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
Mark Philippoussis: From Wimbledon Finals to Reinventing His Life After Tennis
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From facing Roger Federer in the Wimbledon final to losing millions on bad investments, Mark Philippoussis’ life has been a rollercoaster of extreme highs and crushing lows. Known as "The Scud" for his record-breaking serves, Mark was one of the few players who could defeat legends like Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi—but his biggest battles weren’t on the court, they were in life.
In this raw, no-holds-barred conversation, Mark reveals:
🔥 What it’s REALLY like to play in a Wimbledon final against Federer.
🔥 How he lost millions on cars, real estate, and impulsive decisions.
🔥 The mental toll of forced retirement & battling depression.
🔥 The comeback story—how he rebuilt his life after losing everything.
🔥 What today’s young athletes need to know about money & fame.
Timestamps:
0:00 – Intro: Meet Mark Philippoussis
1:15 – Growing Up & Finding Tennis
4:47 – How His Parents Shaped His Career
9:25 – Turning Pro: The Pressure & Reality~
16:26 – The Matches He’ll Never Forget
26:03 – The Secret to Staying Mentally Focused
28:33 – Handling the Roar of the Crowd
29:47 – The 1999 Davis Cup: A Career-Defining Moment
32:45 – Wimbledon Final Against Federer: The Inside Story
37:57 – Injuries & Surgeries: The Brutal Side of Tennis
48:30 – The First Big Paycheck & How It Changed Everything
53:13 – Losing Millions: Cars, Real Estate & Bad Investments
57:27 – Forced Retirement: The Toughest Decision
59:55 – The Mental Toll: Dealing with Depression
1:04:44 – Impulsive Purchases & The Cost of Fame
1:10:54 – How His Past Mistakes Shaped His Parenting
1:12:51 – Life After Tennis: What Comes Next?
1:15:43 – The 20-20-20 Formula: His New Approach to Life
1:25:07 – The Goals Driving Him Forward
1:26:29 – Final Thoughts & Lessons Learned
If you’ve ever wondered how elite athletes transition to life after the game—or how anyone can bounce back from financial failure—this episode is packed with unfiltered insights you can’t afford to miss.
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Are you ready to unlock your full potential and take your business to the next level? I’m Matt Haycox—entrepreneur, investor, mentor, and your go-to guy for no-bollocks advice on business and personal growth.
With over 25 years of experience building and funding businesses across industries, I’ve faced it all—wins, losses, and the ultimate comeback story. Through my podcasts, No Bollocks with Matt Haycox and Stripping Off with Matt Haycox, I cut through the bullshit to bring you real, actionable strategies and raw conversations with entrepreneurs, celebrities, and industry leaders.
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Welcome back to Stripping Off with Matt Haycox Now. I've had plenty of business moguls, risk takers and entrepreneurs on this show, but today we are diving into a whole different kind of elite performance. My guest today is Mark Filippousis, and if you know tennis, you know that name. He's the guy that they call the Scud because of his absolute missile of a serve. He's a two-time Grand Slam finalist, he's a Davies Cup champion and he's one of the few players who took down legends like Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi in their prime.
Speaker 1:But here's the thing Mark's story isn't just about tennis. It's about resilience, it's about comebacks and it's about what happens when your career gets taken away by injury. What do you do when the thing that you've dedicated your entire life to is suddenly gone? How do you reinvent yourself and how do you handle the pressure of the expectations, the fame and the success? And that is what we're diving into today. So, whether you're an athlete, an entrepreneur or you're just someone who's had to bounce back when life smacks you in the face, this episode is packed with the lessons on grit, mindset and playing the long game. Let's go. Hey, matt, here Just interrupting myself to say can you believe that 62% of listeners to this podcast don't actually subscribe. Now, I know you like it because you listen to it, you come back and the stats are great, but 62% of you don't actually subscribe. So make sure you subscribe, whether that's on YouTube, spotify, itunes wherever you listen to your content or watch your content, and make sure that you never miss a future episode.
Speaker 1:Guys, matt Haycox here and welcome to another episode of Stripping Off with Matt Haycox, where we dive deep into the mindset, resilience and strategies of high achievers. And today we've got a guest who is a true legend from the world of tennis. We've got Mark Filippousis, known as the Scud, for his explosive serve, an extraordinary career marked by jaw-dropping highs and an incredible comeback. He's a two-time Grand Slam finalist, a Davies Cup champion and also one of the few players to beat legends like Pete Sampras and Andre Agassi during their prime.
Speaker 1:But today's conversation isn't just going to be about tennis. It's going to be about life. Mark's journey is a testament to resilience, adaptability and the power of mindset. From battling career-threatening injuries to reinventing himself post-tennis, mark has faced challenges that will resonate with anyone striving to overcome adversity and succeed in their own arena. We're going to explore what it takes to perform at the highest level how to bounce back from setbacks and how lessons from the court can be applied to business leadership and personal growth. So listen up and get ready for a masterclass in mindset from one of the most electrifying sportsmen of our time. Mark thanks a lot for being here, buddy.
Speaker 2:It's an absolute pleasure, man. Thank you for having me it was quite an intro, wasn't it?
Speaker 1:Quite an intro.
Speaker 2:Amazing.
Speaker 1:I'm taking that home. Listen, let's. Um, let's go back to the beginning. Let's uh, you know, let's. Let's talk about where it all began childhood life at home and when you first picked up a tennis racket yeah, I'm born and raised in melbourne, australia, eastern suburbs of melbourne.
Speaker 2:Um, I fell, well, I kind of got into tennis accidentally in the age of six, six, seven years old. I was hanging with my dad and he happened to be playing with a friend of his after work.
Speaker 1:He was a decent player just just recreationally.
Speaker 2:He was hitting the ball like the like the game, I guess it and stayed, you know, just to keep the body moving after work. And I happened to be with him and I was just bored watching him and I kept on grabbing the balls and said, look, if you behave yourself and let us, you know, don't steal the balls. I promise that after work I'll have a racket for you and we'll go and hit some balls. So I behaved myself and you had a racket for me, and the next day we hit some balls and that's how everything began.
Speaker 1:I mean, how long did it take for you to, I guess, go from hitting balls with your dad to taking some proper lessons, to knowing that there was some talent there?
Speaker 2:Look, I would hit with him a few times a week and from him seeing a natural ability, I think, with, first of all, coordination with, you know, hitting the ball, picking up a sport you know um, yeah, just other kids and with lessons, and it grew from there with with me getting on one-on-one coaching and then him, you know, my father being a student of the game and just love watching the game and and learned from, from watching the best players in the world would tape their matches and then he would kind of educate himself and learn from the best and different things they brought to the court. And again with coaches and with him learning getting on the court himself, it just grew from there.
Speaker 1:When did you start to play competitively?
Speaker 2:I want to say I entered under 10s or under 12s, I probably under 10s tournaments, under 12s, I probably under 10s uh, tournaments. You know, when I was nine years old, eight nine, started playing local competitions, um, and you know, started doing well, and then, and from there, I think it's it's weird, because very few things in life, especially when you're that age, you vividly remember something and I remember I he was under 12 and I represented victoria and we ended up. I happened to fly to perth, you know, from melbourne is like other side. It was a five-hour flight and I remember walking to this club and just seeing people clapping and, and for me it felt like there were hundreds of people, they're thousands, but they were just parents.
Speaker 2:You know, there might have been a dozen parents, but it, oh my God, this is what I want to do with my life, you know. So, at the age of probably 10, 11, to have that mindset of that dream of this is what I want to do, was is pretty special because some people, you know, kind of bounce around and not really quite sure you know that, and have that dream, dream or that, that passion they fall in love with until maybe they're in their 20s and it could be even older.
Speaker 1:So so for me to kind of have that feeling and that thought mindset of this is what I want to do at the age of 10, 11, was actually pretty, pretty special there's many, uh, sporting stories, or stories in sport, particularly tennis, of super pushy parents and you know, and kids, uh, I guess kids who probably think they enjoy something, but it's really the parents doing it more for themselves than it is for the kids. I mean, what was the relationship, uh, between you and your dad, or you and your parents, as, as you started to get better? I mean, obviously he was helping you, but was there any pushing or uncomfortable?
Speaker 2:yeah, no look didn't, was my dad tough and pushed me when it got to a certain level, like 15, 16, where I've physically gotten stronger and then I had to push to get to the next level, because he understood what it took. That's a yes, that's a different story. I think I was 14, 15, but he said because, look, if this is what you want to do, I'm going to push. It's not going to be easy. You know, I would wake up and train while the kids were still sleeping. Before school I would train, then I'd go to school.
Speaker 2:After school he'd pick me up, we'd train again and he said this is what it's going to take. He goes, but you know you can stop at any time. But if you your grades and you're going to get a job, just like everyone else, but if this is what you want to do, you're going to have to just dedicate and have discipline and do what the other kids are not willing to do, even the other kids that I would play against. You've got to have to take it to the next level and I did do that, but I wouldn't say there was, you know, my mother definitely. She worked that. My parents worked very, very hard. You know, I just grew up understanding the value of hard work, ethic, you know. And then they worked very hard, um, you know, we were very I would say definitely middle class, you know did they have to sacrifice financially for you to live the dream in the early days?
Speaker 2:yeah, I would say more.
Speaker 2:They both worked hard and, and I think my father sacrificed not that my mother didn't, because she worked incredibly hard, she worked hard as well but my, what my father's sacrifice was when I was in my early teens, um, he was in the bank business, worked his way up and and, um, you know from the back of behind, tell, I can't remember exactly, but he had an opportunity to actually run his own branch, to be the bank branch manager, and he had to go. He would have had to fly to sydney to to train, and then he'd come back and run his own branch and he goes look, I appreciate that. And he's, you know, for years, in year six, I don't know, almost 10 years and he goes look, if I do that, I won't have time for my son's tennis and his training. So he gave up that which would getting him into his next level in the business world. Um, and, and instead of that, he bought a car and turned it which you know, turned into a taxi and would drive taxis while I would sleep.
Speaker 1:I thought you meant taxiing you around games.
Speaker 2:No, no, he did that as well, but he would drive a taxi while I was sleeping and then we would do our training in the morning and the afternoon and, like I said, so, he definitely gave up his career for my tennis career.
Speaker 1:I guess when we talk about things like that now not just now at 40-odd years old, but 25, 30, whatever, when you've got that professional career people often talk appreciatively of those sacrifices made by the parents and talk about how I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them today. But then also, as kids, you know, we kind of like don't really give a fuck about our parents. It's like, oh, you know, I expect this from them just because of my parents and my grumpy little kid. Did you, when you were 15, 16, 17, did you kind of appreciate the severity of what he was doing for you?
Speaker 2:I'm not gonna look, I can't be honest and say I always appreciate what my parents did. My number one priority was always family. That's how I grew up. Family came first, before anything else, and I'm still the same way. But you don't fully understand until you become a father, yourself, a parent and and I'm knock on wood, I'm lucky enough to be a parent of two healthy, amazing kids and have an amazing wife. And when you become a parent and and and you don't fully realize how it hits you.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, when you're 15, 16, I mean you don't even. You don't know anything. You think you know a lot more than you do and and just after living life and going through tennis career, but, like I said, more about becoming a parent do you realize? You know what he gave up.
Speaker 1:You know um later on so when did you actually turn pro? How old are you? Can you, can you remember those?
Speaker 2:I want to say 17, 17, just just turned 18 years old. Yeah.
Speaker 1:For the guys listening or watching who don't know tennis specifically, what does that look like in terms of? I guess you're not walking into Wimbledon for your first professional game. You're still scratching around for little wins, for points to get on the ladder.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a quick crash course of pretty much tennis. So, look, I um, you know, for juniors, you, you the junior um circuit is incredibly important, um, but there are a lot of amazing juniors with number one in the world that never made that transition on the tour. So for me and thankfully my father understood that for that transition, to have any chance of becoming a professional tennis player, you need to have weapons. So it was very important for me to develop those weapons as a junior and and long story short, I was when I was playing um, I was 16, actually I was 16 or 7, just turned 17. So I was 16, actually I was 16, just turned 17. So I was traveling, playing the biggest junior tournaments in the world with Tennis Australia and I was lucky enough during the Wimbledon, after I won my semifinal with the boys singles and to make it in the final, I had signed a contract with Fila, a five-year contract.
Speaker 2:As a kid as a 17-year-old, I'd signed my first contract with filler, five-year contract as a kid. As a 17 year old, I I'd signed my my first uh yeah, contract with filler. And it's amazing because growing up my my one of the idols I looked up to was boris becker and as a 10 year old he wore filler and, um, that was one of the biggest brands out there, you know, as far as luxury, and that it was very small, boutique-ish back then, made in Italy, very expensive stuff and, like I said, parents worked hard and one day they bought me whether it was Christmas or my birthday a filler shirt and a filler shorts.
Speaker 2:You know, back then it was like $60 for a top, $60 for a bottom. You know it was like 60 for a top, 60 for a box. You know it was 120 for that. And I never took it off to the part where my mom would scream because it stunk. I, I would all day, I would be in this, my shirt and my cold shirt and shorts, and I would sleep in it and to the time when he's to take it off. And so I had this dream and and I'd sign the contract when I was 17 with filler, for five years. That was my, my contract. And then'd signed a contract when I was 17 with Fila for five years. That was my contract. And then, all of a sudden, I lost in the final Wombland. But that was the last junior tournament that I played, because we had money to travel. We never had money to travel before.
Speaker 1:And that money was from the Fila, that was for the Fila contract.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the sponsorship, my clothing sponsorship. So my father and I started traveling, qualifying for the biggest tournaments in the world. Where I couldn't, I wasn't good enough to be in the main draw and my ranking wasn't high enough. So, again, the quick rundown is tennis. Uh, professional tennis starts off with satellite league. Now satellite league is three, three tournaments, small tournaments where you have to do really well and if you do well you qualify for the masters event. And if you happen to lose first round, the masters, you get one point. One point gives you ranking of 1500 in the world, so you.
Speaker 1:So you've not earned a point until you've yes, so you have to start with satellites now.
Speaker 2:um, I'm just telling you how it works, but I didn't play. Play the Saturday League, so that's a Saturday League. And then the next thing is a challenger. Now a challenger, there's 50 plus H, 75, 100, and 125. 50 plus H means possibility, so 50 is if you win the tournament. It's a one-week tournament. If you win that tournament, you get 50 ATP points.
Speaker 1:You know, 75 is 75 ATP points 125, which is biggest challenge is 125 atp points, and that's 125 of the same kind of points you said you'd get one point, exactly, exactly right.
Speaker 2:And then there's atp tournaments. Atp, the smallest tournament, which is a big tournament, but it's 250 level of a 250 event, and if you win that, of course it's 250, 250 points. Then you have a 500 series event, one of the biggest tournaments in the world, and that's 500 points. Then next level is a is a master's event. You win that master's event. It's a 1000 event, okay, which is monte carlo, indian wells, miami, and all that, rome. And then you have grand slams where, if you win, it's 2 000 points.
Speaker 1:So that's that's how that's how it works and to put that into context, so saying that you know one point would get you a ranking of about 1500 you?
Speaker 2:yeah, you'd be almost just under 2000.
Speaker 1:Yes, if you're in the top 10 in the, what kind of top 10?
Speaker 2:top 10 in the world. Like I don't say, I want to say top 10 in the world. You're going to have to be around 2200 points, points right now, 2,500 points, and kind of carrying those points.
Speaker 1:Do you lose them at the end of the year?
Speaker 2:Yes, so when you play a tournament, if I were to win a tournament this week and there's a tournament in Dubai and I win it, it's a 500 event, there's my 500 points. Now that doesn't come off until Dubai 2025 or the next year, so that carries on until one whole year and it comes off until that exact calendar year. So, anyway, so I started playing qualifying. Now I didn't have points, but I would sign in. I'll get in qualifying. In qualifying, you normally have to win three matches in order to get in the main draw of an ATP tournament. So I didn't play the satellite events. I well, um, take it back quickly before then, sorry. So, um, when I was 16 years old, I did play a satellite tournament in Australia and I um, which I ended up winning um, and that the one in Australia got me. The winner of that satellite tournament got you a wild card in Australian Open. So the first wild card I had when I was I was 16 years old, but that was before the, the, the, the uh, when I got my uh filler contract right. So then, um, you know, by that time it's 50.
Speaker 2:I got a ranking. I want to say I was 900 and something. I had 50 points because I won that satellite. If you win it you get 50 points. So so I was around 900 or, and then I got this like 750. So I started after I just turned. Uh, I turned 18 in November that year when I got my contract and, uh, long story short, I I qualified and lost in the final of a 250 ATP tournament to Jim Courier, so my ranking went to like 200 in the world. And then I did lost in a semi-final of another tournament and then at the end of the year I played, I lost in the final of a Japan indoors and then the next year, next week, a final of Kuala Lumpur indoors. So my ranking I started off in 900 in the world ended up at 32 when I was 18 so that's pretty much how the career started.
Speaker 2:That one year was a huge year where it got me to play any tournament in the world, from 900 or something to 32.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned the Japanese one, the Kuala, lumpur, and I guess you mentioned those like you remember them if they were yesterday. I mean, I struggle to remember what I was doing yesterday, never mind what I was doing 25 years ago. Do you look back on your career and can you remember pretty much every tournament, every chronology of events, points, key games?
Speaker 2:I'm not that person that does Like, for instance, andre Agassi. He'll remember junior matches, he'll remember the set, he'll remember the games lost, what he won, who he played. I'm not that person, but key moments of my career I do specifically remember. It's just that they were so important because they were huge, you know, million-dollar tournament, indoor tournament, tokyo was one of the biggest indoor tournaments in the world and I had, you know, I beat Stefan Edberg, second round cry check in the semifinal and lost to Michael Chang in the final.
Speaker 2:And the next week I lost to Marcelo Rios in the final, you know. And then, all of a sudden, going to 32, there were, there were pivotal um moments in my tennis career. So I I remember those weeks, um, not so much the score, but but definitely remember, you know, because it changed my, it changed my life. You know, I've got me signed that contract, changed my life but, but that all of a sudden got me into not only any playing, any tournament in the whole world, but actually being seated in certain tournaments as well I mean in terms of, in terms of key matches.
Speaker 1:I was obviously doing a bit of research for this and, uh, yeah, I guess what's what the internet thinks are key matches. You know might not be what you are, but I just I want to mention some of these two and, you know, tell me if they're, they are, of significance to you. I mean, the first one that came up is a 1998 us open um against, against pat rafter. I mean, you know talking about it being in a significant moment, um, because it was your kind of coming, you know coming of age moment.
Speaker 2:You know, particularly um, particularly beating sampras on on that journey yeah, I, I think that one was, because, well, that was one of them, because it was my first Grand Slam final. But I think what got me into the tennis world in front of everyone's eyes was the people that are in their tennis. You know, word gets out of the young kid 18 year old. You know he's 18, he ended up 32 in the world so so people start talking about you that's more into their tennis and know everything that's going on. But that next Australian Open, when I just turned 19, I played Sampras in a third round of that night match. He was number one in the world, dominating. I was a just turned 19-year-old Melbourne boy and I beat him in straight sets that night match. So that quickly put me in the eyes of that tennis world, beating Sampras, who's a legend of our game and, like I said, was dominating, number one in the world and a teenager on his hometown.
Speaker 1:How much older than you is, peter? Had you been watching him as a kid?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, you know what was his first Grand Slam? It was the US Serp, when he was 19. I mean, yeah, I looked up and not only being you know background, having Greek descent, like I was, I was just you know Australian kid with a Greek background, and he was an American with a Greek background, but not only that, it was how he played the game. He's you know, serving ball, that huge serve, that big forehand, but serving bowling as well, and kind of doing everything from the back and coming into net. He was someone that I looked up to and admired, of course, and so that was a big thing for me.
Speaker 1:And how does that feel? I guess A in general, you know when you play against, you know number ones or you know some of these big names, but also, particularly as someone that you looked up to you, up to before you were pro yourself. To walk onto court against someone like that, where's the psychology at, where's the mindset at? Are you, I guess, extra nervous because of who it is, or do you just go blind at that point? And this is just an opponent? I'm going to go on there. I'm going to do the business, whether I'm playing Pete Sampras or Joe Bloggs.
Speaker 2:Well first of all, I'm a teenager playing against the number one player in the world. No one expects me to win. Let's be honest and start there, so you're not putting pressure on yourself. You're saying, okay, let's go out, I can afford to be aggressive and to go out there and go for my shots. I'm always, I've always been that player, that that I've kind of live and die by by my own sword, the blade, and I've, you know, I've, I've, I had a big game and so I had weapons and I could dictate the play on my terms. You know, with the game that I had, um, even when I was at 19, I've, you know, with the serve, and I had I can. When I was at 19, I've, you know, with the serve, and I had, I can kind of take the game out of someone's hands, especially when I serve. Now, when he served, it's different story because he had one of the best serves of all time, um, but I specifically remember, of course, I was incredibly nervous, you know, trying to stomach food and you know I had needed energy, you need to eat, Walking out on that centre court, but there are moments you dream about as well.
Speaker 2:So I remember walking down the corridor and he's in front of me and I'm watching. You know, sampras walking down. I'm following Sampras walk out on the centre court of the Australian Open. I was a kid. I used to watch matches, pay to watch matches on that court. You know what I mean. Get autographs at that tournament, um, and on that court. So, um, I remember him walking in front of me and as I'm walking, I'm like, oh, I'm following. You know, going down this hallway, you're seeing the past champions and the names on the side, and you're walking down and I'm like, oh, I'm following Pete. You know, we're going center court.
Speaker 2:And I remember all of a sudden, because I'm checking him out from top to bottom, you know, as he's walking in front of me, and I remember saying to myself you know, f this guy. You know, go out, beat him, don't give him too much respect. The difference of having respect for someone you always want to have respect for your opponent, but don't give him too much respect where you're like, start giving yourself now, oh, it's okay, he's number one in the world. Oh, no, one's expecting me. No, you're giving yourself out, telling yourself it's okay to lose. So I didn't want that mindset. I've never had that mindset and I certainly didn't want that mindset. I just said, if this guy, let's beat him, you know, but not in an arrogant way, but just you know, don't go out there just to play to be the other guy on the other court, go out there to win and it. It was a special night and and I played great and um what?
Speaker 1:how was the score on that and when did you start to get ahead and think I might be in with a chance on well?
Speaker 2:look, as I said, the thing about my game is I always expected to hold serve. I'd even that I'd just turned 19, but I had one of the biggest serves out there on the tour, easily, um, and and and the ground strokes to back it up, and I also felt comfortable coming to net and serve and volleying as well. So I knew that I should hold serve, that we're pretty much going to come down to tiebreakers against him and whenever I get an opportunity, if it's a second serve, he misses it, I'm going to chip and charge his back. And I'm going to attack his backhand because he had, you know, number one in the world. But he can get to his back and his backhand was his achilles heel where you can put pressure on him. Um, and I thought, okay, I'm going to attack his backhand, chip and charge, go for my shots, serve big, hit my forehand, you know wherever I want. But if I have an opportunity, I'm going to chip and charge and attack that backhand if he passes me too good, but that's my game plan.
Speaker 2:Um, and holding serve. It's on serve, it's on serve, five, four, uh and uh, five, four. To mean he's, he's, he's serving, and then missing some first serves. All of a sudden, second serve, attacking his backhand love 15, I can't remember love 30 and I had an opening and I broke him six, four in the first set. Um the second set went down to a tiebreaker. Huge tiebreak kills up mini break, I think 5-2. I clawed it back and they ended up being 11 all um ended up winning that point and then served, served the big first serve to 11, all in the tie in the tiebreaker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was going back and forth where I had set point. He had set point and then we're kind of the big serving was going back and forth and then it was 11-all where he came in, made him play, return and hit a passing shot. I actually specifically remember points in that match and then he missed a volley and then it's the first time I got a chance to serve for the set on my serve and then got a big, big first serve in and all of a sudden two sets to love. You know, two sets to love against Pete, against these players, is a complete different story than one set all.
Speaker 1:And what does that then do to your psyche and potentially then translate into how your game changes in that third set? Well, my belief.
Speaker 2:My belief is it was always there but, like I said, that was a huge different thing from being two sets love than than once at all. And still, you know he's come back many times from two sets love and grand slams to win grand slams and matches and grand slams. So it was like okay, back in it again. And then that third set got to another tiebreaker. You know no breaks. There was one break the whole match and it was at that 5-4 first set. But I just got out to early lead and just held on to it and I ended up I think it was 7-4, I want to say that tiebreaker in the third and I won in straight sets.
Speaker 1:I mean you just talked about Pete coming back. You know, from two sets down in other matches, and one thing that's often spoken about in sport, particularly tennis, is how you need to treat each point as its own point.
Speaker 1:If you forget the last point, the last set, the last games, easier said than done, especially if you're that person who's lost the last points or lost the last couple of sets. I mean, how do you train yourself to block out the I guess the bad points that have been happening and the fact that you know if you're that person who's two sets down, you're already playing off such a disadvantage.
Speaker 2:That comes with experience, just time on the court. You know there's so many matches in your junior career that that happens. But you know from what you said. You know we're speaking about life and stuff like that. I believe, my god, there's no greater teacher in life like than tennis, like a game of tennis. It's so similar to life because exactly what you're going on now, you, I could be playing a match where I've done many times, where I'm cruising, I'm killing this guy, and then you just your intensity drops and you just take it easy and think I've got this one, and all of a sudden you're in a locker room and you've lost.
Speaker 2:I'm like, how did I lose that match? Other times where you're getting killed out there and you're just struggling, I'm like, just try and get one point, just hold on to my service game, just stay in there, make sure let him serve out the match. But but you know, just one more point, one more game, and then you end up in a locker room and you've won a match. So you know, tennis is so much like life, where it's just taught me so much, where just keep on fighting, you never know what's going to happen.
Speaker 2:Just Just take one point at a time, one step at a time, and you could be injured and you're just thinking of just hanging in there and then you end up in a locker room and then you get a train to take care of your body and then the next day it feels better. You're trying to figure out to get through that first round and then all of a sudden, at the end of that week you've won the tournament. You're holding up that trophy there's. There's a lot of weeks I've had like that, where you're struggling in the first round, the first match, and it's a tough match, and you're struggling with with playing good tennis, and you're struggling for the last few months and and things just slowly come together. You know, one day at a time, one match at a time, one game at a time, one point at a time, one game at a time, one point at a time, and then you're holding up that trophy and tennis is so similar to life like that.
Speaker 1:How does the crowd feature in your play in terms of you know? Does hearing those people cheering for you, does that help you and move you on? Is there a fear factor of you know making mistakes in front of over 20,000, 30,000 people in a stadium?
Speaker 2:No see, I've always loved crowd. I think the bigger crowd that I played against, the more relaxed I was and the more I enjoyed it. But playing at home, having a Davis Cup match, home match, and the crowd's going nuts on your side, that is incredible. There's a lot of times when I've used a crowd's energy to get me through a match. You know you're exhausted, you're physically exhausted, you're mentally exhausted, and you use situations like that to get you through a match. You know, and it have definitely got me through matches and have won me matches and then. But there's also the other side where I've played Davis Cup matches away, you know, against, and then there's 15,000 people against you and there's maybe 20 people for you, and I've used that in my benefit to block it out and to make me stronger and get me through those matches as well, you know. So it can work both ways.
Speaker 1:Talking about Davisies Cup and still on the topic of significant matches, your 1999 Davies Cup final against France was one that was mentioned as a significant game, where I think you helped end the country's 13-year Davies Cup drought. You beat Cedric Peerley in four sets and stole the title for Australia. I mean, does that feature as a significant game for you?
Speaker 2:absolutely, because that was 99 and the finals was against France and we're in Nice and we're playing on clay it was indoor clay, very slow clay and and they were definitely the favorites um and uh so we'd go in and that was one of those things where I'd go in and it was kind of an up-and-down year. It was a good year for me, but I remember just, we got there, of course, almost two weeks early, 10 days early. We were training on the clay, getting ready, and my training sessions weren't good. I think I was just putting a lot of pressure on myself. I was expecting perfection for myself on the practice court before, you know, davis Cup final, and I remember I was just uptight and broke a lot of rackets during the practice week because I just was nervous, you know, and it was amazing because I got all that out of me. And then when we shifted to go to the indoor where we had two, three days to get ready before we played, everything clicked for me and I just zoned in. And then the first match was Sebastian Grosjean, where I beat him in straight sets you know, I think I late and lost his singles. Woody's won the doubles and then I beat Peel in four sets to secure the win for Australia.
Speaker 2:And then that was one where it was a huge, I don't know, 17,000, 18,000 people. They built this stadium indoor stadium and we had a lot of the Aussie fanatics, as you call them. We had a small section there. There were maybe a couple of hundred. They were making a lot of noise, but against 16,000, you know the French crowd.
Speaker 2:And also where, on certain areas, right next to the front, where I used to go, and you know you'd go and grab the towel or get the ball from the ball boy, they had those horns, you know where you press the button and the horns and they'd lean over and put the lawn close to me, you know, like right next to me. Um, and I remember I was so focused that I just blocked it all out, to the point where, when I won, I almost didn't realize it was match point. You know, um, and it was um one of those moments that I I will never forget, um, the first Davis Cup, because there were two things growing up as a Aussie tennis player that you dreamt of. That was representing your country, putting on the green and gold and winning a Davis Cup and winning Wimbledon. You know, playing on the grass in the center quarter, wimbledon. There are two things that you grew up that was like you know. That came naturally for for any, for any dream for an Australian tennis player.
Speaker 1:In terms of Wimbledon. You, you played Federer in the final in 2003. Yes, where where he beat, he beat you um, was it was that? Was that your only Wimbledon final?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah. So US Open final 99 and Wimbledon final 2003. That was, yeah, that was a big one because I had close. That was my definitely um, the best grand slam was very consistent always quarterfinals, matches and and that never gone past the quarterfinals. One year I think it was actually was 99 I was playing sampras in the quarterfinals. I won the first set and I had break point the second set and I had tore my cartilage so I pulled you know. So, um and then, so that's being the up and down, and finishing off with a Davis Cup win was amazing. But the 2003 was incredibly important and a huge one because in 2001, I had my third knee surgery on my knee and they said I'll never play professional tennis again. So I was out for nine months, you know, wheelchair for three months and then crutches for a couple of months before I started training slowly. So that was a big year, getting back into shape fitness-wise and getting on the court again.
Speaker 1:And that 2003 final, that was in the year of your comeback.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was one of the biggest years I had because I finished. I was almost 100 in the world and finished that year I ate in the world. Um, and and that year, and I don't know, I was unseated, definitely unseated. I want 80 something. I might have been, I'm not sure and and but every time I got on the grass I just felt incredibly comfortable. Um, it was my favorite surface um, you know I had one Queens before Wimbledon. It was just my favorite month of the year. You know something I looked forward to every year and so you know I had got to the final and I had actually beaten Federer a month before that in the German Open in the round of 16 16 and then playing him in the in in the uh final.
Speaker 2:That was his first grand slam final. Um, it's not like he was unknown, he was three or four in the world. You know, um, one of the best players in the world, and and and we know the player, he is the natural player, he is and he was just all so beautiful, you know to watch and tough to play against, because he had that whole. You know, from the back, from the, you know, at the net, his beautiful slices, volleys and mixed it up with his, you know, back of the court hitting as well, and just the way he glided around the court. But also, that was his first Grand Slam as well and you know, I ended up losing to him in straight sets. He was, I think, two tiebreakers or six, seven, six, six, three, seven, six, but the first tiebreaker was huge because I had a. I was up a mini break, you know. So, um, if I'd won that first set, I think things could have been different.
Speaker 2:But, um, just momentum was a huge thing and it was just a long two weeks. Um, remember, I was on the court, on the court six hours more than him. I played a couple of five setters, I beat andre in five sets and ran a 16, and then the quarterfinals was down, two sets to love against pop came back to win. So it was just a long two weeks and unfortunately just couldn't get it done, you know, and, um, I was very proud of myself, obviously, but but man, did it hurt, you know, to go all that way and because the reality is, no one remembers number two, no one remembers the runner-up, and to watch him, you know, walk around and then go up in the box to clug his family and coach and his team and watch him lift up that trophy. Doing that lap around the court was tough but a proud moment as well.
Speaker 1:How quick do you get over it?
Speaker 2:I don't know. Look, I got over it. It hurts. I think as an athlete, you learn to have short memory for certain things.
Speaker 1:What was your strategy? I mean, like, on a night like that, do you go out drinking with your mates and try and forget it? Do you lock yourself in a dark room?
Speaker 2:No, I had a dinner. Look, I hurt in the locker room and I hurt after that. But you go out and have a dinner with my friends and, like I said, you want to celebrate, but not much of a celebration but still, like I said, as a 10-year-old kid you had told me that you're going to get to a final of Wimbledon and walk on that last Sunday I'd sign that contract in a split second. You know what I mean. So, like I said, mixed emotions. But yeah, it was like it's like now, when I and I go there every year because I play the Legends event and I do stuff during Wimbledon there with sponsors and stuff like that. I always look at that, I always look up at that 2003 year and just go you know, um, always, I always look up at that 2003 year.
Speaker 2:Um it's, I'm always going to do that, so yeah let's, let's talk about injury.
Speaker 1:I mean, obviously you mentioned that that was a big year because of of uh, of the comeback, and that was your third knee surgery at that point, and how, how serious. I guess any surgery is serious, but how serious had the first two been prior to the third? You know, when you were told that you'd never play professional tennis again.
Speaker 2:Well, the first one was that 99 match. That was my first one where I was, like I said, quarterfinal Sampras playing it was a beautiful day, not a cloud in the sky, just playing great tennis won the first set 6-3. It was 1-0, had break point, um, and had hit a backhand like I've done 2,000 times off the back foot, like I've done in my career, and felt something, but didn't really know what had happened until break point. He'd served the big serve and I went to return and lunge and I'm like, oh, that felt something a little weird and he ended up holding serve and I called the trainer and the trainer came. I was like, oh, that felt something a little weird and he ended up holding serve and I called the trainer and the trainer came.
Speaker 2:I was like, look, I don't know, I've done something. I've you know, I felt something. But, um, he goes like get lie down your back. And he was just stretching around trying to work out what was going on and he goes okay, stand up again. And what had happened was, when it went to stand up, I had torn my meniscus and when he was checking my leg, what was going on? That piece that I had torn off had folded into my joint. So every time I'd step on it would just be the most excruciating pain. So I literally couldn't put any weight on my left leg. I ended up shaking hands within 30 seconds.
Speaker 1:I knew I couldn't even I literally from when the train from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I just I couldn't, you know, because because of that, that meniscus had folded into my joint and I ended up being just helped off the court and I'd, and I carried my um bag and I just remember, in the locker room, just, I was in the, I was on the massage table and it was a small locker room back then and Pete was next to me getting stretched and I just remember I was just crying.
Speaker 2:I started crying, you know, and also crying because I didn't know what I had done, crying because just the, the what's the situation and and and the opportunity I had lost, you know being, you know being up a set with with Sampras, you know, and and just playing great tennis and feeling good. So that was number one. But a meniscus tear is a very quick repair. I was back on the court, I had my surgery, quick repair. I was back on the court, I had my surgery, I was walk, I walked out, you know you stand up right after the surgery, just to make sure everything's good, and oh yeah, so I ended up quick.
Speaker 1:Did you get that surgery after?
Speaker 2:after that I was on the court, probably two weeks later, slowly hitting you know it's literally that quick yeah, but not playing a tournament two weeks later, but but two weeks later slowly hitting and doing rehab.
Speaker 2:And then everything was fine until at the end of 2000, where I had a great year and I was close to finishing in the top 10. And I remember I had just lost in the final to Paris Indoors and to Marat Safin 7-6 in the fifth, and I had one tournament to go to, the Swedish Indoors event, and I thought if I did well, I would make the the top eight, you know um event into the EATP champions, um. And then the night before the match I was with my coach then, peter McNamara, and we ended up going to a restaurant and I went to run across the road after that and um, and I almost collapsed. Something and something happened and I and I woke up to from a warm-up and I couldn't. I tried warming up my match and there was just this pain in my left knee and I had done it again. Same issue.
Speaker 1:Same issue.
Speaker 2:So I come back and I was on the court eight days later. Ten days later I was on the court again and I played a tournament a month and a half later, after the show had opened. It was a Memphis indoors. Half later after showing open, it was a Memphis indoors, a big indoor tournament. I was seeded number two, sanford's number one, and I win that tournament. But I didn't realize I'd come back to Atlanta. I had damage, done damage, and then I?
Speaker 2:Um ended up playing in Miami tournament. I had beaten Chang and then I woke up my knees like a balloon and then I ran a 16, I'll play Federer. And then I'm like god, I don't know what's. I know something's wrong, but I've got to play. So I had put a something. I'd put a sleeve over my knee so no one would see that it was like a balloon. And I lost him in three and had an MRI that night. And then the doctor was the miami heat orthopedic surgeon from miami heat doctor, um the hospital team, and he goes you've got to come in 6 am, we've got to. You've you need surgery? You know, um, you've done your meniscus again.
Speaker 2:So I'd woken up from the surgery and then when I woke up he goes look, once we got in there, it wasn't as simple as that and I actually ended up having a microfracture surgery.
Speaker 2:So microfracture surgery is when the bone above your leg has you have cartilage around your bone but that had worn off, so it's bone on bone. So they had to drill a hole in the bone and then that hole you have to be non-weight bearing. That's why I was in a wheelchair for three months in crutches, and what has to happen is and that hole you have to be non-weight-bearing. That's why I was in a wheelchair for three months in crutches. And what has to happen is what's supposed to happen is that hole has to bleed and that blood ends up hardening up, which hopefully turns into like a cartilage, like protection around the joint. So I was one of the. They had six surgeons in there because they hadn't done this surgery a lot. You know, only a handful of surgeons have done the pass like this, and another doctor said like he'll never play professional tennis again.
Speaker 1:At what point did you hear those words?
Speaker 2:When I woke up, okay, when I woke up, but the doctor, he was pretty good, pretty positive. He goes look, don't worry about what they say. I believe we've, you know, focus on our rehab, um, and let's just see how it goes. So I ended up doing rehab with the miami basketball team. With him for months, um, I was living in miami and I was getting synthetic college injections in my knee, um as well.
Speaker 2:Um, and yeah, it was at the time where I was incredibly depressed because I was in a wheelchair, um, and I was that kid where you can't sit still. I would ride, I would be on a jet ski, I'd ride motorbikes, I was a little bit of an adrenaline junkie, snowboarded. I just couldn't sit still and just the fact of being on my wheelchair would just, um, mentally, was getting to me. So one day I remember waking up and my dad would end up getting trying me to do things. He got a tai chi master to come in. I'll do tai chi for my mind, like in the wheelchair, and stuff like that. And I'd woken up and he'd sawn off the armrest of the wheelchair and he goes okay, we're going on the court and we're going to start hitting balls. So I remember I ended up training and was hitting balls. I could hit forehand, so I ended up just doing training while I was in the wheelchair I mean, is that beneficial for you?
Speaker 1:because I mean, I would imagine hitting a forehand from a wheelchair is materially different from a hundred percent. But it was just for the mind.
Speaker 2:Dad did that for my mind to keep me just not thinking about the wheelchair and just thinking about getting stronger and getting better. So everything he did, I was doing Tai Chi, I was doing meditation. You know, I was doing rehab every day. I had someone come to my house every single day and then, when I got out of the wheelchair, I had a person come to my house and we did 30 minutes of yoga, 30 minutes of pilates and massaging. For now, every day I did everything I possibly could to get myself back on the court and and how?
Speaker 1:how did you maintain motivation or find motivation and focus? Because, even though you know you've heard from the first doctor that you won't play professional tennis again, you know the next guy's saying look, don't worry, we're going to focus on rehab. But you know, I would imagine inside you think he's probably saying that to make me feel better.
Speaker 2:You know honestly, the best thing is hearing doctors tell me that I'll never play professional tennis again. I'm that guy that you tell me I can't do something. I will. That's how it was as a kid, you know. They said as a kid you're not going to make it, and I'm that person. The best thing you can do for me is tell me that I can't do something If you want to help me. That's kind of how. That's what I wanted to hear and that's something that drove me every day. And the fact also, too, is having people around me very small circle. This happened at the same time. I had friends that disappeared. I had friends that I thought were super close, that were. I had this guy who was next door, literally my next door neighbor that I thought was one of my closest friends. He did not come to my house once in those six months because he thought you might not be the famous market.
Speaker 2:Well, because my ranking dropped because I wasn't playing tennis, I wasn't traveling, you know, I wasn't getting him tickets to watch tournaments, matches. That happened as well, and that was the best thing. Could have happened to me as well. I had people that I knew, my friends, who you know one of my closest friends now who would come to my house five, six days a week. I ended up bringing friends and I'd play doubles on the court in my wheelchair, you know, and I realized who were, who became family in my wheelchair, you know, and I realised who became family to me, who really, you know, loved me and were my friends. And there were a lot of things that hurt me during those times, that were tough for me but ended up being a blessing, you know. And so that's another thing as well.
Speaker 1:How long did it take till you did go on court again professionally?
Speaker 2:Nine months later, I was on the court playing my first tournament.
Speaker 1:nine and a half months later, how did you feel in that first match, Matt it?
Speaker 2:made amazing. You know, the first match I won. Second match I lost in the second round, but I just felt grateful.
Speaker 1:There was no fear that, oh, I'm going to step on my leg.
Speaker 2:Funny, no no, that was for the longest time after that. But no, no, no, that was for the longest time after that. But no, no, when I was on the court. I'm that person that, to be honest, I'm fearless, like I did a lot of stupid stuff with motorcycles and fast guys where I was lucky enough to kill myself. To be honest with you, I just had no fear. I had that thing where you got to a point and you knew you had to slow down or something, and it was a wall where I just wanted to go faster. That's how I was with my life, to be honest with you, with everything I did, and I just didn't know. I knew when I'm on the court and I promised myself that I was not going to rush from rehab because I had done that before. So I knew that once I got on the court, I was strong. Trust me, trust my body. You're ready. You, I was strong. Trust me.
Speaker 1:Trust my body, you're ready, you've done the right thing, just go. And that's where I was. Let's talk about money. Um, what? When did you when? When did you first start to, you know, earn earn good money?
Speaker 2:when I was 17 years old, when I signed that from that feeler multi-million dollar contract with phil that was multi-million dollar, yeah look, I'm that kid where I never, even now different story, now I look at it in a different way but I was never motivated with money. I left a lot of money on the table, millions of dollars because I didn't feel like doing something, because it wasn't passion.
Speaker 1:I wasn't passionate about something like what you're like, like like an event sponsors events, events sponsors.
Speaker 2:Signing with signing with another, um signing deals, racket deals, clothing deals. I said no to. You know what I mean why?
Speaker 1:because you genuinely preferred the, the, the racket or the kit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the lower, yeah, yeah and also, yeah, um, just like with other sponsors, you know, going to an event or signing, dealing with a company to sign something, that that'll. I was never motivated if. If you know some stuff and looking back to look the reality is ignorance of just a stupid kid as well, not understanding. Like, for instance, there was something where an event where I'm like I I just you know what, I just want to go snowboard. I just want to go with my best friend and grab a helicopter and go snowboard and it didn't matter what it cost, because that's what I wanted to do. And, like I said, not because I worked very hard for my money, but because if I wanted to do something I was passionate about, I didn't and it didn't worry me about money, whether it be doing something for my family or it was the same thing, you know, and I just put life and my family and life experience as my priority, even before tennis, to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:Who would advise you about money in those days? I mean, did you have a manager?
Speaker 2:I didn't have a manager. I didn't. I didn't have. I wish, I wish I.
Speaker 2:There's certain things I regret in my life, but but that I wish I do better. But but they're the other things now that have made me stronger and put me in a better position now because of the mistakes I've made in the past and without a doubt, some of the biggest mistakes I've made were the finance side because you have to understand something as a professional athlete, you've got one job and that's to get on the court at your peak, physically and mentally, and just play, and you have other people to do all that, so you don't have to worry about nothing and just go there and hit the ball, which is what you've done for like for all my life. So you put people in position that you hope would take care of that. Now I regret and there's nothing to blame of anyone, but I regret not asking questions, not asking questions about certain things. For instance, you let's keep the the number simple.
Speaker 2:You make a million dollars. I made a million dollars. Oh, it's a million dollars in my bank account. It's not simple as that. If you make a million dollars, the million dollars is not in your bank account. Tax take what, depending, where it is almost close to 30, 40 percent, you know, depending if you can get it down great, let's say 40. The agent they make their percentage you'd be lucky to get. You know, maybe you got 50 of that, you know, but in my mind I'm like I got a million dollars, I can spend a million dollars. You know what I mean. That's just the reality is and and not asking questions about that, not that I spent. I think I definitely got to a stage where if I did things, I just did it and not ask questions. And then all of a sudden, you know you get, you get injured. The money's not coming in, but you're still used to a certain lifestyle doing a certain thing. You know what I mean. Things like that.
Speaker 1:But do you think you just did the things anyway because you weren't money motivated and you thought well, listen, I don't care about the money, I want to do the things I want to do. Or was it the fact that you think this will last forever? Was it the fact that you think this will?
Speaker 2:last forever. No, definitely the first one. I'm not that one that this will last forever. And my mind didn't work like that. To be honest with you Now, there were times thinking okay, and you hear it later on like, oh, just so you know, you're being injured, and again, as a professional athlete for me, I knew that that's okay, I'll be back at my peak. I know I'm gonna. I'm not thinking okay for a rainy day, just in case, because I can't think anything negative. It was only like that's fine, I'll be back, I'm gonna be stronger than ever, I'm gonna be playing. You know what I mean. Like I, I would not let anything negative into my mind. I couldn't, you know. Um, it was. I was always incredibly positive person and I just didn't want to think anything negative or worst case scenario.
Speaker 1:I just are there any particular, you know particular want, not one-off, but any, any particular key um spending events or crazy, crazy things that you look back and think you?
Speaker 2:know. No, look I, I. I loved cars. I still in cars. But now it's like, okay, what's the point of getting this car? Can I fit in at number one? Can I enjoy it with my whole family? Does it make sense with my lifestyle, what I do? I look at things a certain way now, you know, whereas before, how fast is it? It's just me, there's two seats, I didn't care.
Speaker 1:There's another person.
Speaker 2:I can take along, right. So when just me there's two seats, I didn't care. There's another person I can take along, right. Um. So when I bought cars, I lost money on cars. Yes, I'm not gonna mess around cars, weren't you know? I didn't make money on cars. I certainly lost money on cars, but they're not the ones that I got in trouble that hurt me. The actual things that hurt me were actually real estate, which is crazy, because I thought that real estate is something that's solid, that you know.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, sure and these were real estate investment deals or things for yourself yeah, for myself where buying another home or having or even even um a commercial real estate, and I again didn't ask questions um thinking you know, I can't hurt, and also it was bad timing too. So you know, there was one was real estate and then overextending and then being injured, and then 2000. And then I think the first one was what? When was the first one? 2000, was 2002? Was stock market, you know? Was there one 2002, 2003?
Speaker 1:I'm a bit young.
Speaker 2:There was one, but there was one, but you know, and then the big one was 2007. That one really because I overextended myself there with commercial. For instance, there was one where I grew up when I worked really hard with my dad. I would train in the morning in this area Liston Tennis Club in Williamstown and then I trained really hard and my dad would reward me with an ice cream, a scoop of ice cream, across the road and there was an ice cream shop there.
Speaker 2:Now that building, it overlooked the city it was beautiful, overlooking the harbour of Melbourne and the city of Melbourne, and that came up for sale. It was like three bedroom upstairs, a beautiful townhouse, and downstairs was the ice cream shop. Oh, my god, I'm buying this ice cream. I didn't care what it cost, I'm buying it like I've got a chance to buy the building of that ice cream that I used to for years as a reward would get an ice cream. You know what I mean. So I thought this is, it's meant to be like you know, and it's commercial property. You know, know, I had bought. I just said for um, a best friend was putting, I know I stayed. I stood in the building next door. I didn't want to be there people to know. So I just like keep going, keep going. Um, whatever it is, just have your hand up.
Speaker 2:Now. I didn't realize, for instance, that the guy who sold it his daughter was was had the ice cream shop and he had extended the contract for an extra three years, but instead of paying $5,000 a month to more than cover and have money in the pocket, he ended up doing a deal with $3,000 a month which wouldn't even cover the cost of the payments. You know what I mean. And then there was a slab leak which ended up it was a whole mess, but anyway it was things like that and other things of residential properties just overextending and then getting injured and not being able to play. That, you know, hurt me at one stage. You know that ended up being amazing. You know great lessons and you know.
Speaker 1:Do you still have any of that real estate today?
Speaker 2:No, but I have other real estate. You know, and again, I think being partners with my best friend, who's been in industry for a long time, who works hard and is very smart business guy, of of putting yourself in a situation to work with someone who can guide you in that situation, you can learn from what was a great thing and just learning from my mistakes. Learning to ask questions now with my accountant. I sit down, I go to him, you know, I sit down and we go through every little thing and I ask stupid questions, but it's okay, I just want to know everything before I leave that office, to know, you know, what could I do, what could I have done? What does this mean? What does that mean? So, like I said, the mistakes I've made in the past are benefiting me now and I'm in a stronger position I've ever been.
Speaker 1:When did retirement start for you?
Speaker 2:Well, unfortunately, I never got to choose retirement. It happened for me because I ended up having six knee surgeries.
Speaker 1:Six.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I got three in each knee and my last year on the tour I stopped at 29 because of knee surgeries and because of knees, I couldn't continue, so my last year on the tour was 2006.
Speaker 1:And how did you feel about that? Did you feel robbed too soon?
Speaker 2:You know what? I was at a stage where, dealing with all the surgery, and then all of a sudden it started with my right knee, I had fallen out of love with the sport and I just was so exhausted because, coming back from an injury, you can deal with it physically, you know what it takes. It was more on the mental side. You know the mental side. That was really hard and I just got to a place where I knew what it would take, and more because now it's my fourth surgery, fifth surgery, and I Couldn't commit. I just didn't have it in me and I just fell out in love with a sport that I was in love with since I was 10 years old.
Speaker 1:And when you knew that that final match was coming, I mean it was even.
Speaker 2:It was like it was sorry to cut you off, but it was Hopman Cup. It was during the Hopman Cup. It was the January. It was like the second match of the year. It happened. I didn't even know, but it ended up being my last match.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. So it wasn't like my knee's a knack and I'm going to have to tone it down. You did your knee in that match and you knew you couldn't come back after that, well, no, no, I didn't know.
Speaker 2:After this, even as I was going pushing my practice session, practice matches, my knee kept on swelling. I felt like I had another surgery. They said, actually you need another meniscus surgery. And then the same thing as my training, doing that, you know, and all of a sudden, almost a year and they go in and again I was like it's a meniscus. And then third surgery ended up being another microfracture surgery in in the wheelchair and then that's where I kind of it was. It was one of the toughest moment. It was I was going through a very tough stage in my, in my, in my life. Then um. But the good news is um is because my priority was all always family before tennis. The transition was not. That stage was not difficult because I had such a strong support of my family and the people that I love around me did you have any idea what would be coming next?
Speaker 1:I mean, was that, was that fear? No, I.
Speaker 2:That was like I said, that was a tougher stage um of my career of being with, because other things started happening where, um, I went through fear, I went through just anger. There was a number of emotions, that kind of I went through stages. You know depression as well, not knowing what to do, again being scared, being angry. There's a lot of emotions there. Um, again being scared, being angry. There's a lot of emotions there. And and and. It took months but eventually, um, you know, I remember one stage, especially when I was in that third surgery and I was um bound and you know, in the wheelchair or in bed I didn't leave, I didn't see daylight, I covered the shades. I remember I I didn't go out once, even when I could walk, I didn't leave the house probably for like three and a half months. I was like in depression, like um, struggling big time, um, so yeah, what got you through the depression.
Speaker 2:I remember my mom saying just can you please go for a walk outside, you know? And I just went for a walk to the dog for a walk, and it was. I went out, it was blue cloud, it was a blue sky and it was this. It was a beautiful day and I just was, as I was walking over, looking the water. I'm like it's going to be okay. You know, it was like just going outside realizing that life is beautiful, it's going to be okay. I don't know what's next, but whatever's next, I'm going to deal with it. It's going to be okay. You know, um, because there was also a lot of stuff. That's where I got myself into trouble financially and that's why I was super scared too, because I'd taken care of my family. Now I was like I don't, I don't even know how I can take care of my family, so so there was a mixed emotion where I went through, where it was a very difficult stage, where it ended up being a blessing, but it was, at that time, incredibly difficult.
Speaker 1:And in terms of the fear around money. So, at that point of the forced retirement and not knowing where the future lied, where were you financially? Had you done most of your money in buy-in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I've overextended myself and and and then I had to sell, so I I had I had lost everything. To be honest with you, oh really, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, obviously there was fear. I mean, was the regret? Did you everything?
Speaker 2:that's what I said about the mixed emotion it was. First thing was being scared, then it was self-pity, then it was anger, blaming others for where I was at. You know what I mean. And then, no, sorry, sorry, it was being scared number one. Then anger, and then that's where I ended up going for a walk outside and just realizing it's going to be okay and then realizing that my family's here and as long as we're together, all the other stuff means nothing.
Speaker 2:All the other stuff that I had was fine. See, even the big house, the shiny cars. I knew they never made me happier. I just bought them because at some stages to be honest with you, if it sounds stupid I was bored If I'd buy a car. At one stage I was at home a week. I was injured and I bought something. It was never for the right reasons.
Speaker 2:When I was a kid, I had that poster on the wall for Ferrari and my first car was a Ferrari. When I was 18, because it was a dream, I thought, thought, oh my god, it was my first car. It sounds stupid, but I was like I can do it, why not? It's, it's no one. I walked in, grabbed it. No one stopped me. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I worked hard to do it and and it got to a point where I just, when I bought things, I just bought it because I don't know, I just bought them.
Speaker 2:There was no, nothing attached to it, nothing where I I wanted it for the longest time, you know. So it was just, it was a shell, it was emptiness. When I bought things and and to get to a stage where you lose everything. And then what hurt me, what what hurt me the most, was losing that stuff, was the was beautiful, the best thing ever, because it simplified everything in my life, but it was not being able to take care of the, the people that I love. That's what hurt me the most. And I was so angry with myself because I put myself in a position where they worked so hard to get, to put me in a position to become a professional and and now it was my responsibility to take care of my family and I'd, because of actions that I controlled and stupid things of not understanding, I put myself in this position. Now I can't take care of the people that I love.
Speaker 1:That's what hurt me the most in terms of what you're saying about, um, about, uh, you know, buying things out of boredom and then, and then, never particularly enjoying them. I mean that's certainly something I I can relate to. I mean, I, you know, I've I've had a lot of cars. There's always a prime example. I mean, I've had a lot of cars over the years and, um, you know, it's, the act of buying them was the excitement, and then I drive them one time, how quickly is the way around?
Speaker 2:and they're just their part, I think. What did I?
Speaker 1:buy, for I've got no interest. And I think you know, certainly as as we get older, uh, you know, we, we, you know I don't regret anything I've done before. And you know friends always say to me that you know, look at all those things you used to waste money on you know, do you regret it? Because you know, if you hadn't have done that, you'd have this now you'd have done that.
Speaker 1:You had that now, and I'm not a person who who a thinks in terms of regrets. You know I don't really regret anything but I also believe that you know what happened at a particular time led to the next thing, which led to the next thing and it's such a hypothetical conversation that I always think it's not even worth getting involved in. You know to say, oh well, if you didn't buy that car you'd have.
Speaker 1:You'd have had a hundred grand more that you didn't lose right I wouldn't, because I'd have spent it on something else or bought something else or whatever, and I think you know, everything that has happened up to now in my life is as, as you know, one thing's led me to the next limit to the next. And you know, we wouldn't be sat here now doing this had all those things not happened. So I think, am I happy today? If I'm happy today, then everything that's led to today, you know it shouldn't um shouldn't, shouldn't be be regretted, but I do do think as I get older now and look at the things that you know what does really interest me.
Speaker 1:I've lived in Dubai for four years. I got rid of all my cars when I left England because they were just there parked outside the house and you know I've used a Mercedes Vito over here to get driven around for the last few years, spent most of my time in Ubers. Couldn't give a shit about the cars anymore. The things that are happy times for me are sat eating a Nando's with the baby, taking the kids to the beach, spending time with genuine friends.
Speaker 1:I guess it's something I I don't know. Do you need to have suffered the financial hardships along the way to to appreciate those things now? I don't know whether you do or? Don't.
Speaker 2:But uh, you know, ultimately you, you do see where the value is a hundred percent and, like I said, the, the cars, things, that, but that's not the reasons why I got into trouble. That's the crazy thing is, it was for the real estate, um, but, but again, not asking questions, not learning. You know what I mean, and but I believe. I believe things happen for a reason, no matter how unfair or how much they hurt at the time. But, knock on wood, as long as you have your health, man, you can accomplish anything. But but it was a bit, honestly, the best thing could have happened to me. Those times were, were tough, I'm not gonna lie, and it was not days or weeks or months, it was a year, though, but they also. I got to a stage where I had the most amazing one and a half two years of growth, where I just journaled and I read any book that I could touch. You know earth authors that I love, that I connected with that. I started growing as a human, as a person for the you know, and just learning, um, um, you know, and just putting myself in a good, just a good, position, you know, but but from the inside first, inside out, and then just things started. But from the inside first, inside out, and then just things started. I really believe in vibrations and attraction and law of attraction, law of vibration. I believe that I'm a huge believer in that and once I got myself these books and got myself in the mindset of hanging around these people they're in the same mindset as myself of growth as well and being in a good place. Then I met my wife. I attracted that. Thank God I didn't meet her when I was younger I would have done something stupid to mess it up. You know what I mean. So I'm grateful that I met her after all those difficult times and after I bettered my, bettered myself of understanding and growth and learning and audio books and all that, and, and, and, like I said, and um, you know you get stronger because of that. And now put, you know, put myself with people where that can help me in a direction where I want to go. You know, ask some questions. I know that. You know I've got my back learned from and, you know, surround myself in that circle where you know where I want to go in my life. You know and and um, and that's what. That's where I'm at now. You know the things I do. You know.
Speaker 2:Grateful enough, matt, you've invited me here. We've got an amazing tennis exhibition and you know I say yes to things because my heart is there, because I'm passionate about it. Otherwise, you know, I wouldn't leave my family. You know I've known, known you for many years and and we're having an amazing time here. And then then, when I come here, I'm grateful, you know, I um, I walk through, we're at a beautiful hotel, I have a balcony overlooking the city, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to be in a room like that, you know, to be in an amazing city, um, like dubai, and and that chance to overlook the ocean. You know what I mean. Like every day, I have gratitude for certain situations. I mean a lot of situations, conversations I have with someone, with you. Right now.
Speaker 2:Being mindful of that, I think it's important to go through a time where maybe the best thing that happened is the fact that I've lost everything. You know what I mean, because I've built it back plus that, but stronger. But I know that it's only the beginning as well. And now being you, know I have responsibilities, whereas before, when I was young, you do stupid shit. You're a kid, you're supposed to do stupid stuff. You know that's where you want to do it, get out of your system. But now I'm a husband, I'm a father. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:How do you think the experiences of your wilder younger days have impacted or created your behaviour as a father?
Speaker 2:Oh, like I said, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. I mean, now, my best thing I can do is is that I enjoy movie nights, you know, with my family in certain in terms of how you, how you parent the kids.
Speaker 1:You know, are you strict?
Speaker 2:I am education, yeah no, no, look, education for sure. And and, like I said, I'm blessed and very lucky with my wife. She's an amazing human being, she has a beautiful heart, um, and and she's an amazing human being, she has a beautiful heart and she's an amazing mother, partner and mother. And I am I'm not going to lie, I'm strict with my kids but, fair, a little more strict with my son, nicholas. My son, he's 10. He turns 11 in February. My daughter's six and she's got me wrapped around her finger.
Speaker 2:I'm sure you know having a daughter, and I am, you know, being um, you know having a daughter, uh, and I am, you know he wants to be an nba player and and I believe, um, he's going to be an nba player and he's working hard and I I'm very strict, so I give him that strong mindset now he's not a tennis fan no, no, he's he. He plays ball, which I'm you know I'm happy he is.
Speaker 1:I see your basketball training on Instagram.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'm strict. I am strict with him, but fair. I'm trying to teach him the understanding of having discipline and working hard. If he does what he's supposed to do first and he works hard, then he can play as long as he's done his work and doing his homework, and that's very important or how he interacts with other human being. Someone says good morning Nicholas. You say good morning and you look at him in the eye, you shake his hand, firm shake. You know. When you look at him, you know I learnt I've always, you know I have learnt that too since I was a little kid and treating everyone the same and with everyone with respect. So that's very important things that I teach my kids.
Speaker 1:Other than, obviously, obviously, you know, getting married, becoming a father. Talk to me about life, post-retirement. You know what. What? What did you fall into first? You know what. What have you been up to? How do you fill your time? How do you make your money? Well, the beautiful thing is after.
Speaker 2:That is is I played a lot of legends events and I fell in love with the game all over again, because I'm getting a chance to play these legends tournaments and there's no stress and pressure. We're still competitive when you get out on the court and want to hit the ball well and and play well, and I'm always going to be competitive. We've played paddle. You can see how competitive.
Speaker 1:I'm on the paddle court.
Speaker 2:I'm a competitive person and you know when I I love that. Um, so you know, lucky enough to still do play these legends, tournaments and these exhibitions and play a game that I fell in love with for the pure joy of playing. But I do, you know, commercial property with my best friend, we do stuff where we focus on the commercial property side, but my day-to-day thing is I have a clothing line. It's a passion project that's become a business for me. That I'm really. You know I have goals. I've set goals for myself, for the business, 10-year goals that I have.
Speaker 1:How long have you had that business?
Speaker 2:now Two, three years. I launched it during COVID. It's a clothing line as we create.
Speaker 1:And it's you and your wife, I think, isn't it? Yeah, men's and women's.
Speaker 2:Yes, men's and women's, we're. You know we're excited because we launched the first activewear line this year actually end of end of this year, where the women's line will be launched the start of next year. And I want to. I'm not going to lie. If you think lululemon, viore, that's what it is. It's state of stuff that you can live in, but stuff that you can go out coffee, walk around, walk the dog, go to breakfast, go in the gym. It's performance stuff as well, but stuff that's just, that's just, you know, just good style. It's. It's um classic lines and um that's comfortable. It's all about the material, I think, is the most important thing. The fabric feels amazing and the stuff that you just want to hang out with all day and what?
Speaker 1:what do you do in that business insofar as is as you're doing everything, we do everything. There's no other partners. Advisors.
Speaker 2:No, I've funded it all myself. I didn't want to bring in any. I don't know about the future, but I just, you know, I'm lucky enough. We can reach out to people in the industry and you know, with certain questions and this and that, but my wife and I do everything. I did all the websites. We, we obviously get people to come in for the photography, the filming, um, but I did the website myself, um, you know, we even sent out orders ourselves. We're looking to expand next year to get into, like, um, a warehouse, but also a storefront as well, um, when the active line comes out. So, uh, but yeah, I'm, yeah, I'm learning every day and I love it, man you were saying earlier that you know you.
Speaker 1:You did a lot of reading at that particular point in your life. I mean, are you a reader when it comes to business? Yes how do you get your knowledge? And tell me a couple of your favorite business books or podcasts.
Speaker 2:I listen to podcasts. I mean, I listen to yours. I listen to podcasts every day so I wake up. One of my favorite authors is Robin Sharma. The Monk who Sold His Ferrari is one of the first books I haven't read it.
Speaker 1:I know the name the 5AM Club.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you read the 5am club is a book I love. Um I'm up at 4 55 every day, like I want to get up before five and I have my first um, my hour of, called the 2020 20 formula, which he likes to call it, but by I get up, I um they say you work out first, but but I I get up up, I make myself a coffee and then I'll journal. The first hour I won't touch electronics, I won't look at my phone, I won't check any emails. I'm not allowed to have any electronics. The first hour I wake up.
Speaker 2:First hour is I'm a coffee snob. I love my coffee, so I make myself coffee and then I'll journal for 20 minutes. I'll start off with my grateful journal. I actually have a statement, I'm sorry. I have a statement I've wrote down for myself of my goals. So as soon as I wake up, I read the statement to myself of what I have, my goals. I'm mark philippous and I have. I have um goals in there. You know I will. You know I have uh certain um financial goals, this and that, that I'll read out to myself things. So I'll do that twice a day, as soon as I wake up and before I go to sleep.
Speaker 1:And how do you set your goals in terms of time scales? Do you have short-term things to do this week or this month?
Speaker 2:The statement is a long-term goal I've given myself. It's a 10-year thing that I have certain things in my business, in my personal life and financing everything that I want by 10 years. But I do set daily goals, I pretty much set daily goals. So my journaling, first thing is grateful. I write down everything that I'm grateful for, and then I have my thoughts. My thoughts I'll put out on paper. Maybe that is something on my mind that I'm stressed about personally business, financial, whatever it, um. And then I I have my thoughts and then my tasks, my actions of how you know to you know my most important things for the day, what I want to tackle, and and then finish off with some positivity stuff, um I've never been a journaler myself.
Speaker 1:I know a lot of people who do. When it comes down to writing what you're grateful for, does that vary a lot? Because I would imagine if I was writing it I'd be saying I'm grateful for my kids and I'd be writing that every day. Yeah, pretty much. It gets a bit repetitive.
Speaker 2:I do, but my God, am I grateful for them every day. You know, it's like I don't want to write things and just be like, oh, I'm doing the same thing and it becomes like brushing your teeth like you.
Speaker 2:Really I'm I'm aware and present of the things that I'm grateful for. You know, because I'm lucky enough to have him in my life that every single day and then and I might add things, other things that have come into my life, certain things where I've added I I one thing even when it happened, I put on I'm grateful, the opportunity to be going for dubai and excited about the opportunities and the people that I will meet. You know what I mean. That's one thing. I'll add things on, I'll keep on adding to them, but I have certain things that I'm grateful for. That's in my life every day, um, so that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what do you do with that journal book when you just keep these books?
Speaker 2:I would normally have so many journals, but I bought myself a remarkable you know the remarkable pro.
Speaker 1:I know the name.
Speaker 2:It's like an iPad, but you can't do anything but write on it.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And it's like. It's like you're writing a piece of paper and it comes with a pen, because I normally had an iPad pro but I didn't want anything to distract me from writing. And then I'm like God, I'm writing and all of a sudden let me check out what's on YouTube, and then there's, I can watch movies. This is only for writing. It's the best thing, it's it's it's it's called remarkable. I got a remarkable two, um, and, and the feeling is like you're writing on a piece of paper. You know, yeah, he's got it, so he's got it right there, and so I have that, and the battery lasts for like a month. So I have that and it's only for writing, because I can have it with me. It's this thin and I can have 100 journals in there.
Speaker 1:And you go back looking at stuff like sitting down one day. I can with that, yes, but do you actually do it?
Speaker 2:that's part of the whole process, yeah I definitely do so I have it in there and then my next 20 minutes is reading. So I will read my minimum of 10 pages a day. I have 10 pages and sometimes I might do I might read for an hour, but I have a minimum of 20 minutes of journaling, minimum of 20 minutes of reading, where it has to be at least 20 minutes a day, and it's got to be in a non-fiction book, so something that will educate me, that I can learn from. It can't be sci-fi or anything like that. And so I'm on one to two books a month. I read, but I just read twice Again. I just finished before I came here. Think and Grow Rich.
Speaker 1:First time you've read it.
Speaker 2:Second time think and grow rich. Yeah, first time you've read it a second time. First time was on an ebook podcast on um sorry, on my phone, but first time audiobook, first time I've read it, which was much more powerful because I would underline things and then I would put things in my journal as well. That would really come out to me, hit out to me, um, and that's where I created the statement from you know, because I have that um, one of the first things to do, you know as your statement, and then I would do something physical.
Speaker 2:I work out twice a day, so I do certain things and the business things for whatever my clothing line to do, and then with my wife or my kids to pick up. He's got basketball training, so then I have my schedule.
Speaker 1:When we're offline. I'll give you a few of my book choices, I mean I'm an avid reader myself, and I would love that I've been saying a few times lately, I'm most embarrassed to admit I only just, uh, did my first amazon book purchase. It's about a month ago.
Speaker 1:I mean I, I'm normally a physical guy, you know, then I'd go, I like to go, plow through the bookstore and pick things up, but I guess, obviously I'm missing out on getting lots of books and there was a particular book that was quite niche, uh, that I knew I could only buy on amazon, so I went to buy it on amazon was it. Um, I can't remember what this specific one was. To be honest, it was, uh, I can't remember, but when I was on there it was like people who've bought this yes, also like this.
Speaker 2:I'm an amazon primary, so I know exactly what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:I bought 130 bucks in that month and I've finally taken over from my missus who normally monopolizes the, the amazon delivery man yeah, and all these books have been around, so they've been stacking up. But I uh, I'm a certainly a non-fiction reader and I'm more into tactical stuff than I do do a little bit of mindset and motivation now and again, but I, like you, know particular tactical plays of how to do this and how to go from.
Speaker 1:A to B. So I'll put you, I'll put your little thing thing together of yeah, I'm the same.
Speaker 2:I've probably got 10. I buy two, three books a month easily and I've got under my desk the ones to read next. But you know one thing I would say for you to do, and also, it's changed my life, because I had a lot of moments where everyone talks about motivation. You know, you people get motivated, but it only could have lasted a week, could last three days. What changed things? Next level for me was um andy frisella. Have you heard of andy frisella?
Speaker 2:yeah have you heard of 75 hard? Absolutely yeah, I did 75 hard for the first time this year and I completed it. And I completed it, did it once, I didn't have to do it twice, but I did it. That changed, it, put me in the next level. You know why? Because it gave me habits Like it, proper integrated habits in my career, in my life. And that was about the reading. Physically, I work out twice a day. Since then, I do 75 hard every single day. Drink the water Every day, drinking the water, 3.8 liters of water. I work out. One workout is outside and one workout has to be inside. So I work out. I've done that, the reading, the journaling, and I've added things to it. You know the eating and stuff like that. So I, I, that was.
Speaker 1:That was life-changing for me I had a couple of friends who did it over here. I mean one particular friend who actually, who stuck to me. A lot of people started it and and and and dropped out, but I mean after the 75 days you know know it was unrecognisable. I can only talk physically and obviously I'm not sure what he was up to mentally, but in terms I mean never mind the 75 days. What I found amazing was that within 30 days, yes.
Speaker 1:And obviously the longer you do something, the more impact and the more results you're going to get. But just you know, it was literally 14 days in 21 days, in 30 days in the absolutely material changes that had happened.
Speaker 2:That's what was most exciting for me. The physical part was there because that was one of the things you have to take photo every single day, right, it was how your mind got stronger. It was how I was so excited. I wanted to add another thing to it. I wanted to add another thing to it. I wanted to add another thing to it because of exactly what you said not just physically it changed, but mentally. It takes your mentality to another level. Um, and that, honestly, that that was. That was like the foundation where I felt like it just took me to another level so as a as a goal setter, if you hit those.
Speaker 1:if you hit those goals, what? Where would you like to see yourself in 10 years' time? I'll create other goals, no, no, no. But if you're projecting 10 years forward, what do you hope your life's looking like then?
Speaker 2:Look, I'll be honest, it's not different from what it is now. I don't need anything. You know what I mean my loving wife, my family. So I take care of my family. I'm able to take care of my family now. My wife has a nice car. I have one, but I don't need five, you know, we just need one each and the house. We have a beautiful place.
Speaker 2:Now I have a goal for my business that I want to sell, and what number I'm going to sell it for. Um, I will continue to do the stuff I do with my best friend, with with commercial property, but just take it to a whole nother level and I've got a number for that. You know that kind of stuff and nothing would change, you know? Um, yeah, I don't, nothing would change from from what I'm doing now. To be honest with you, it's just my goals would change, it wouldn't. I can't say that in 10 years time, if I do this, we're going to be living here, we're going to be doing this. You know what I mean. It's just put me in a place where we have what we need now. But I've just created those goals.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, I think my, if that makes any sense absolutely, I think, my summary of you know, I think what I've taken from this, or or learned from this, you know, over the last hour or two, is that you know, you've, you've learned from the lessons of the past anyway, you've already created a life, that is the life that you want, a life of happiness, uh, you know with the kids, with the family, you know with the business and everything else and and the the constant learning you're doing and the things that you've picked up over the last months and years is just going to be further building blocks, you know, to cement what is already a happy life. And if it didn't change or didn't get any better which I'm sure it would if it didn't you've kind of already got everything you want right now anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you nailed it 100% and again, but I just know that every day just gets better. You know what I mean, no matter what. And if that doesn't happen, it's happened for a reason, because that other thing is going to be even better.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, Well, so, mark, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, buddy, and you know I always like talking, doing podcasts with people. I know I mean it's not that often I do it. I'm like 400 episodes plus deep now and I think I can count on the fingers of one hand. Uh, you know, podcasts I've done with people I've already known quite well before. We've done the podcast, uh. But it's always interesting that, even though I know them to open up avenues of conversation and things that I didn't know about and interesting avenues or interesting tangents that I never expected the conversations to go off on. So, listen, thanks for talking, thanks for sharing your journey with everybody else and thanks for teaching me while we've been here too, as well.
Speaker 2:It's an absolute pleasure. I'm looking forward to getting on that pedal court again.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Thanks a lot, buddy, thank you.
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