Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
Welcome to 'Stripping Off with Matt Haycox,' where we bare it all on business, money, and life. Get ready to peel back the layers of success with entrepreneur, investor, funding expert, and mentor with over 20 years of experience building and growing businesses, Matt Haycox.
Tune into steamy conversations with industry titans, celebrities, and successful entrepreneurs as they strip down their stories of triumphs, setbacks, and the raw realities of their journey to the top. Matt is going down on business, money, and life, and will take DMCs to new heights!
Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
I Killed A Man: My Life Sentence, Redemption & How Prison Forged Me Into A Multi-Millionaire.
Tell us what you like or dislike about this episode!! Be honest, we don't bite!
What happens when you’re raised to be invisible, end up in a gang, and face the death penalty by 22?
This is the story of Quan Huynh—once a violent criminal, now a bestselling author and entrepreneur on a mission to rewrite the narrative for the formerly incarcerated.
In this jaw-dropping conversation, Quan opens up to Matt Haycox like never before. From growing up a Vietnamese refugee in Utah to spending decades inside one of America’s most brutal prison systems, he reveals what really happens behind bars—and how a single moment of clarity changed his life forever.
You’ll hear about gang warfare, criminal enterprise, emotional breakdowns, the brutal truth of justice in America—and how he used books, breathwork, and belief to transform his future.
This isn’t a redemption cliché. It’s a raw, powerful insight into crime, consequence, and what it really takes to rebuild your life when the system says you’re finished.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Introduction to Quan Huynh's Journey
3:21 - Childhood and Early Influences
7:54 - Struggles with Identity and Belonging
10:00 - The Impact of Family Tragedy
12:20 - Escalation into Crime
16:40 - Life in Jail and Gang Culture
21:24 - Reintegration and Continued Struggles
26:05 - The Fatal Incident and Its Consequences
29:25 - Facing the Death Penalty
31:07 - Life Sentenced: Adapting to Prison Life
32:25 - The Mechanics of Crime and Compensation
35:10 - The Brutality of Prison Life
36:14 - The Inability to Control Violence
37:32 - The Awakening: Finding Purpose in Prison
42:18 - Transitioning from Crime to Redemption
45:03 - The Parole Process: A Journey to Freedom
47:28 - Life After Prison: Embracing New Opportunities
49:03 - Building a Business: Empowering Others
51:04 - Writing a Memoir: Sharing My Story
52:26 - Changing the Narrative: Advocacy for the Incarcerated
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Welcome to Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
This isn’t your average business podcast. It’s where real entrepreneurs, celebs, and industry leaders strip back the polished PR, and get brutally honest about the journeys that made them.
Hosted by entrepreneur and investor Matt Haycox, Stripping Off dives into the raw, unfiltered realities behind success: the wins, the fuck-ups, the breakthroughs, and everything in between. No scripts. No sugar-coating. Just real talk from people who’ve lived it.
Whether you’re hustling to scale your business or just love a behind-the-scenes look at how people really make it, this podcast is your front-row seat to the truth behind the triumphs.
Who Is Matt Haycox? - Click for BADASS Trailer
Hey guys, welcome back to Stripping Off with me, Matt Haycox Now. I know it's been a little while since we dropped something on this podcast, but after a little bit of a break and a whole lot going on, I am excited to be back Now. If you've been following me lately, you'll know that I've just come back from Everest Base Camp. I've had a proper reset and one hell of a reminder about what real challenges look like, and on top of that, I've been navigating a few PR battles too, something I never shy away from and something I've spoken very openly about on my no Bollocks podcast recently. Safe to say, it has been a season of growth, grit, challenges and a fair bit of reflection. So I wanted to reopen this podcast with something meaningful, something that strips it all back quite literally, and today's guest, quan Huynh, does exactly that. His story is one of the rawest, most powerful conversations I've ever had. Born into a refugee family, caught up in gang life and sentenced to life in prison after a fatal shooting, he'd faced a death penalty and he ended up serving over 20 years and came out a completely transformed man. But this is not an episode about crime and punishment. It's about identity, forgiveness, purpose and what it really takes to rebuild yourself when everything has been taken away. Quan went from prison gang leader to grief facilitator, entrepreneur, author and advocate for the formerly incarcerated. Now, if you've ever thought that you've gone too far, if you've ever doubted whether real change is even possible, then this episode is going to shape that belief to the core. I absolutely loved recording this. It was genuinely one of the most interesting, powerful and humbling conversations I've ever had, and I'm honoured to be able to share it with you guys. So tune in, sit down, listen up, because you're going to fucking love it. Guys, matt Haycock's here and welcome to a podcast episode that I have been very excited about ever since I knew we had this booked.
Speaker 1:It's a very different kind of episode, very different angle to what we normally do. We always dig deep into people's stories, but normally there's a very clear business angle, entrepreneurial angle, etc. There is going to be a bit of that, a bit of this, in this story as well, pointing me all the way from sunny california. Kwan huynh, who hopefully I said that right, so it's a it's a tongue twister of a syllable names, but kwan's story we're going to get into deep in a minute. But he was in a gang in california, took somebody's life. He ended up in well, getting life in jail after being tried for the death penalty, I believe and ultimately was paroled after something like 22 years in jail. He's rehabilitated, he's written a book, he's got a business and he's more than turned his life around and helps others to do the same.
Speaker 1:But I'm, I guess from a personal interest, very interested to dig into the psychology of the past and what life in the gangs was like and life in jail, etc. So, quan, thank you very much for being here. Mate, I really appreciate you joining us. I appreciate your honesty in these situations. So, thank you very much. Thank you for having me, matt. I mean, I'm going to throw it over to you to tell me, tell me where this story begins really into. You know, in terms of what? I guess? What was your childhood? What was your? What was your parental situation like? Were you born into a real bad life from the beginning, or did you? Did you kind of go off the tracks in some way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, I'm a first generation Vietnamese refugee. We came to the US after the fall of Vietnam, so my father was part of the South Vietnamese Army. He was a military officer and we settled in Provo, Utah, because that's a state that my father was familiar with. He had come to the United States to train with the US Special Forces during the Vietnam War and he knew what the United States was like. My mother had never seen snow, so my father decided to settle in Utah of all places. So I was just a toddler. I don't have any recollection of Vietnam. I was only a few months old and that's where I grew up. I have one younger brother, one younger sister. They were born over here.
Speaker 1:But I guess from that, from the way you've described that to me, that this, this was okay. Yes, refugee background, but but I'm trying to think of the word I was going to say nice parents, but not not nice is the wrong word. Uh, I'm sure I mean not from a criminal background, not from just just normal, I guess working class people from a working class. At what age can you remember? You know what were you like as the youngster, that you can remember?
Speaker 2:I remember growing up in Provo, utah, we were, I would venture to probably say, the very first Vietnamese family to settle out there. This was after the fall of the Vietnam, during the Vietnam War, like the war was just over. So I remember growing up asking myself like why? I mean, utah was a beautiful state, it's a beautiful place, but I did experience what I now know to be racism. Growing up there. I remember as a little kid asking myself like why couldn't my family look normal like all the other kids around me? Because everybody there was white. So I definitely did not fit in, physical wise. I didn't understand why people teased us. I didn't understand why people would say get out of our country, like you guys don't belong here. So there was that backdrop of not really feeling like I fit in in Utah already. Of course, my father.
Speaker 1:Was that specific? What you would think of as Vietnamese racism, or this was just that it was an area that was racist to anyone who was not a white American?
Speaker 2:I would venture to say it's probably just because it was Vietnamese, because it's the Vietnam War, american soldiers were dying in Vietnam and people over here just see somebody that's Vietnamese and think just think that I'm the, our family was the Viet.
Speaker 2:Cong instead of just like, instead of just thinking wait, these are the people that were that the United States was trying to help. But we've lost our country and now we're settling in our new country. So that's just what I grew up living. I remember my father created the Vietnamese Refugee Association to help other Vietnamese refugees coming to the US because he was an English instructor in the military, so he understood English very well. And as a little boy I used to get to go with him to other states to see him helping people get their driver's license, their documents, their social security cards, all of that. But I remember, even as a little boy I couldn't understand like why would my dad do this stuff and he's not getting paid for it? Why would my dad do this? It didn't make sense to me as a little kid. It was a little bit after. When I was eight is when my father was first diagnosed with leukemia, and I think that's up to that point I felt my father is my hero and he's invincible. But now suddenly they said he's he has what's called leukemia, some type of cancer, and he could die from it. So his condition began to get worse and so we moved out to California because he had family living in California when we moved out here to, because he had family living in California when we moved out here to California.
Speaker 2:This is the first time that I'm going to school with kids of color. You know there's blacks, there's Hispanics, there's other Vietnamese. This was the time when a lot of the Vietnamese refugees were coming over from a lot of the boat people. Even in school a lot of those kids couldn't speak English. They had just come over and I couldn't speak Vietnamese well. So the kids used to tease me and they said like, oh, you're whitewashed, you're not really Vietnamese. So there was a part of me that just never felt like I fit in anywhere I went and it's just something within myself that I never felt like I don't fit in with people. There's something wrong with me inherently.
Speaker 1:Did you start to make friendships with, with, with other non-white americans?
Speaker 2:you know, other people of color or the other people that that was your friendship group blacks, hispanics, whatever yes, yes, I got along with we, with all the other, all different races, but I think those are ones that we started. I started hanging out with more. My best friend was also Vietnamese and by this time my father was going in and out of the hospital a lot. My mom was working full time and my best friend, his older brothers, were already dabbling with the criminal lifestyle. They were breaking into cars and I looked up to these guys so I started following them around and then when my father passed away my mom, I remember at our my father passed away on the day of our first communion.
Speaker 2:I found out that he passed away because my younger sister told me when I woke up that morning to go to church she said oh, dad died last night and we're not supposed to talk about it Like nobody knows. So I told my brother and we went to church, at church for communion and we're and it's everybody's celebrating, and here I, all three of us we know my dad is dead and we're acting like we don't know.
Speaker 1:It was very bizarre and then after you again sir I was 13.
Speaker 2:I was 13, uh, when he passed away it was after our first communion. Then my says your dad passed away last night and then we never talked about it again. It was never like okay, how are you guys feeling? We should go to therapy, we should talk about this as a family, we should grieve None of that. We just never talked about it again. So I just thought that's what we do. I didn't talk about it, I just held it away. For years I didn't talk about it. So every time it came up in any type of conversations I was just like oh yeah, my dad passed away and people said, oh, I'm so sorry, like, and that was it, and I don't talk about it.
Speaker 1:How was your mom, I mean, who took charge of the family, who took kind of control of the situation?
Speaker 2:She's very stoic. She's always been that way, very stoic, so she doesn't express emotions. For myself, because, being the first born, I felt like there was a lot of expectations. There was. I remember as a little kid we walked into a Taco Bell restaurant and my mom was looking at the cashiers and it's like I wish you could hurry and grow up so that you could go to work and start taking care of me and the rest of the family. So I know she didn't mean it that way, like to put this undue pressure on me, but that's just what I felt.
Speaker 2:So where I did feel less stressed is because then I could run on the streets with my friends. The school did come easy for me, so I didn't have to study much and I could just still make her happy by still getting good grades. But yet there was a part of me that I liked the older guys they started having. We started getting involved with other, uh similar activities on the streets, like breaking the cars and getting credit card, credit card fraud and just doing things like that can you, can you remember the first crime you committed?
Speaker 2:probably breaking into a car and stealing the car stereo. At what? 13, 14, yeah, right around there, 14, 15. Yeah, I remember, even before I had my driver's license, I had a bunch of stereos under my bed because my friend and I and his friends we would break into the cars and I would have it and we could sell it. I remember my mom came in and said what are those? And I said, oh, those are car stereos, I'm fixing them. She's like oh, you're so smart, you know how to fix car stereos, car stereos, I'm fixing them.
Speaker 1:She's like oh, you're so, you're so smart, you know how to fix car stereos. Yeah, but whilst you were doing this, you were still, you were still trying at school, you were still getting some, you were still getting good grades, still respectful to your mom. It was almost like living a double life.
Speaker 2:Your mom, yeah, yeah basically it was because I, like, I I'm living this double life, because I I live up to her expectations of me to make sure that she's happy. But then there's a part of me like I. I like running around on the streets with my friends. Um, I, I'm enjoying just being a kid when?
Speaker 1:when did things start to escalate?
Speaker 2:in high school because then, like we, we got into high school. By that time there were different groups of kids. There were different groups of friends and my group of friends didn't get along with other groups of friends kids. There were other kids that were in gangs already we weren't in a gang, but it was just like we were. We had our own cool group that we used to hang out with, and then we also started having issues with kids from a local skinhead gang. So these other kids said that they were skinheads and me and my younger brother, we always carried a chip on our shoulder about skinheads and racism. So it became easy for us to have issues with the skinheads and that's where we started having beef with them. And that's when my first arrest happened, when I was 17, when one of my friends some of the skinheads had called my house and threatened to kill my mom and then one of my. That day my brother had come to to to. I was working at Subway, the Subway sandwiches, and my brother had come and said that some of the skinheads had called my, our house, and threatened to kill our mom.
Speaker 2:A few months before that, one of my friends had gotten a hold of a gun, and we used to. The first time I saw the power of a gun was when we were at a beach party and a bunch of the skinheads had surrounded us. There was only four or five of us and my buddy pulls out the gun and everybody runs. So that's when we knew, ultimately there's a new sense of power. So then everywhere we went was, oh, let's bring the gun. Oh, and everywhere we went we talked about let's shoot them up, but none of us had ever shot anybody or shot at anybody. That evening they had told me that the skinheads had called our house and they came by. They said, ok, we're going to come pick you up at 10 o'clock and we'll find where they live and we'll shoot up the house. I had asked my co-worker hey, do you?
Speaker 1:happen to know where these guys live. Shoot up the skinheads house.
Speaker 2:Yeah, shoot up the skinheads house.
Speaker 1:Hey Matt here. Thanks for listening to Stripping Off with Matt Haycox, but did you also know I've got another podcast, no Bollocks, with Matt Haycox? Both of these are very different. If you're enjoying the deep dives with the guests that I have every week on Stripping Off, then you're going to love the quick, short business tips, strategies and tactics I give you on no Bollocks. This comes out nearly every day. Make sure you go and check it out on iTunes, spotify, youtube, wherever you listen to your content, and I'll see you in a future episode. And when you hear that the skinheads have said they're going to kill your mom, is that a credible threat? As in in my world, you know, someone says that you know they're going to kill someone. It's you know they're more likely to cook a pizza. You know what I mean. But in the world you were living, somebody says I'm gonna kill your mom.
Speaker 2:That that is a credible, likely thing well, because here his the guy that we had problems with. We had beat him up before at that same beach party, um, and then his mom and had brought like some uh, motorcycle gang member to my work and said, hey, you hurt my son. And I was like, ok, well, your son had snitched on my brother for a robbery. And then she's like, ok, he shouldn't have done that, are you? Are you sure that the beef is over? Are you going to put hands on my son anymore? And I'm like, no, as long as he just leaves my brother out and we're done.
Speaker 2:So that was I thought that was it. But then I heard later on the streets that the guy that came with her mom his mom had actually had a gun to go in there to kill me. So from my head at the time I was like, oh, wow, there's people that want to kill me. Um, and a part of me thought, oh, that's kind of cool that, that, that that people were coming after us and heard about us, you know. But at the time, yeah, I don't. Did I really think that someone was going to kill someone, to kill our mom? I don't know, I don't think so. Did I really think that we were going to go and find those skinheads and shoot up the house. No, we were just talking because we had never done that.
Speaker 2:I got off work that night at 10 o'clock and my brother was laying in bed when I got home and said, oh, we found the house and Red had ran up in there and shot some people. And I looked out and I saw the helicopter that was circling, I guess, to bring the medevac, the guys out. And I found out that he had ran in and shot and injured three people. Fortunately they all survived. But within two weeks I was arrested for conspiracy to commit murder with my brother and my other groups of friends. That was my first arrest of many to come.
Speaker 1:And when you got arrested at that point, how did you feel? Were you scared that you were going to go to jail for something you didn't do? Did you not give a fuck? Because I know a lot of people from that life are like, well, I don't care, I'm hanging out in jail with my boys. I've got more fun in jail than I've got out on the street. How did you feel?
Speaker 2:No, I was terrified. I've never been to a record. I didn't know like wait, this is unfair. I didn't know anybody was going to get shot, like I had nothing to do with that. But they said I was part of a conspiracy. So yeah, I think all of that. I felt it was unfair, I was scared, I was terrified. Of course, at the time I wouldn't admit it to myself or anybody else. I just tried to fit in inside juvenile hall, but that's how I felt. How long were you inside?
Speaker 1:How did you get released?
Speaker 2:I fought my case for about a year and a half, almost two years, and then they gave us a deal for seven years in the California Youth Authority. By that time I had already been charged with an adult. I went to the county jail. I got pretty indoctrinated in the criminal and gang lifestyle, got what's called jailing. I got laced up by the older guys. I said, hey, you're Asian, you belong in this car. And then I was inside the county jail for, yeah, almost two years fighting my case. So I mean in jail. I had been in multiple riots. I had gone on a mission to hurt somebody that came in. I had volunteered myself to attack somebody that came in for a sex crime. I'd been in many fights. I'd been beat up by the police, I mean inside jail. I knew when I came out it was just no. From there I went to the California Youth Authority and they did a diagnostics hearing and then they let me out after, I think, like two and a half years. You were how old at that? Point, 19.
Speaker 1:When you got released.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let me ask you a couple of questions about, I guess, about that life in jail. And so you know you, I mean even your worst case you knew you were looking at maybe seven years and you were a couple of years into it. So I mean you knew you were coming out at some point.
Speaker 2:Well no, at the time they tried me for three counts of attempted murder. So that was 45 years to life.
Speaker 1:It was hanging over me because I guess my question was going to be you know, were you happy to get proactively involved in these other crimes that would lengthen your sentence? Or were you thinking I'm in here for life anyway? I don't give a, I've got to make a, I've got to make a life and a name for myself on the inside.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, what 17 or 18-year-old could comprehend? 45 years to life? I was just still going to court and hoping somehow to get home. But while I'm here, I'm housed here and this is jail. And these are my people, or this is my group that I'm following, and this is how I have to live and this is how I'm getting recognition and this is how I'm feeling like I feel liked. I mean, it was a weird feeling to be in jail and be with the other Vietnamese and go. This is finally. I feel like I fit in somewhere with somebody for once in my life. I feel like I fit in with this group.
Speaker 1:Did you have to get involved in a gang in jail? Did you have to get involved in a gang in jail? Did you have to get involved in other crimes, or could you keep yourself to yourself, or would you be at risk of your further personal safety if you didn't involve yourself in this?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it would be a mixture of both. I mean I wanted to get involved but there was part of me that felt that I had to because of just peer pressure. But nobody ever said that you had to. But I mean there was, like I shared earlier, there was a one time there was a guy that had come in for a sex crime and they asked for volunteers and me, being young and stupid, said here, I'll volunteer. I have a little sister and if someone had done that to my sister I'd want to kill him, so I'll volunteer. And I did it more just for recognition and and and to feel like, okay, I'm, I'm tough, I'm, I'm cool, I do fit in. And me and three other guys beat another human being to a pulp like that man. That fight gave me nightmares for years after of what we did to that man. That I never admitted to anybody or myself, but I it it. That thing gave me nightmares. We beat him so bad yeah, did you get.
Speaker 1:Did you get punished for that at the time?
Speaker 2:No, I got away. I got away with that. All the guys had already. So basically we beat that man up. He fell on the ground. The other guy jumped up on a sink and jumped on his head twice with both feet and it cracked his skull open. And we still were kicking his head. And when we flipped him over, all you could see he looked like a, a big fly. You could see what a skull had cracked. His eyes were popping out, blood was everywhere coming out of his ears. He no longer had a nose, couldn't see. It was. It was nasty.
Speaker 2:But then I ran in the shower, washed all my clothes through in a bucket. So that's what we knew like. Okay, there's a bunch of five gallon buckets, just hide your the blood in your clothes and let it soak. And I washed off most of the because in there we learned that the cops always check for marks on your hands, but if you put lotion then the red marks go away. So I put lotion on my hands. After the shower I put on my legs. So once they did body checks I didn't have any more marks on me. But two of the guys didn't didn't try to get rid of the marks and they got charged with it with the theft of find out what happened to the guy no, no, I heard he was in critical condition, but I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1:Sorry, the camera froze. Say again what.
Speaker 2:I said we heard that he was in critical condition, but that's all I heard.
Speaker 1:So you're 19 and a half, you exit jail, you're back on the streets and by that point you are now a hardened criminal and there's no turning back.
Speaker 2:I think I would have to say I came out on the streets even more lost and confused because I had seen so much during my time a different world. I came back out and I no longer felt like. It felt like everybody knew I had just got out of jail. It felt like I did not fit in. It felt like I could not relate, people could not relate to my journey. I couldn't talk about it. So I remember I did what I best knew, what I could. Oh, let me just enroll into college, let me go to get some education, let me try to find a job.
Speaker 1:So you actually still thought in those dimensions. I was going to say how was your relationship with your mother still? Did she or your siblings visit you in jail? Were you still respectful?
Speaker 2:We were close. We became closer after my first arrest, before that's when like yeah, that was like that's my mom and she's going to be there for me. So I tried of course, always try to make her proud and, yeah, I enrolled in school and I got good grades, but then the only guys that I could really relate to were a lot of my friends that I had made while inside, and those are the guys that became the core part of our gang later on.
Speaker 1:So you decided to try and get work. You decided to try and enroll in college.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I enrolled in college, still hung out with the fellas. I remember going out with the fellas one time and getting shot at for the first time and how that terrified me. Then I noticed I had this tendency to overcompensate the old man. I would never want to make sure that happens to me again. So let me find a gun so I don't have to get shot at. And then it just so. Part of my life was still trying to find meaningful work. Feel like I'm a success. The other part is I still enjoyed this type of lifestyle. I like being involved with these guys. We have our fun together. So that was just that was how my life was. I got arrested multiple times after that, like gang violations, gun violations, and that was this pattern until the eight.
Speaker 2:I paroled and then I was working at this place called the Gallup Organization. I was their 1998 interviewer of the year and they asked me to take a management position interview. So it was a personality-based interview at Gallup. I did the interview. They asked questions like oh, what color do you think of when you hear this word? What thoughts do you go through when you're driving at night? So it was all personality-based. A month later it came back and they said we're so sorry, you're not a fit. Because that whole time leading up after the interview I was saying man, finally my life is going to be right for once. I'm going to be a manager. Over 300 interviewers, things can go right for me for once. I'm about to uh, uh, I can finish and graduate from college. I don't have to be in this lifestyle anymore. And then they told me I'm not a fit. So that crushed me right there. I think also just hearing the words you're not a fit, even though that's just the language they use, but I think me it resonates something deep inside.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like man, I'm You're feeling the racist, I guess the racist memories.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the racist no, I wouldn't say kind of racist, but just the deep seeds of not fitting in somewhere and not feeling like I'm good enough and not feeling like I'm competent. I know what I didn't talk to my girlfriend about at the time, didn't tell my mom. I went down to the bar. I got drunk. Within a week I went with my buddies up into a club up in Los Angeles, brought my gun along.
Speaker 2:When I came out of the nightclub that night I heard that some of I saw that some of my friends had gotten in a fight with another gang. We got back in our cars with those group of guys from the other gang began harassing some of our homegirls and and the girls that were with us called and said hey, those guys that you guys got in a fight with are here. They said they're from this gang and blah blah. So I was across the street and I saw their car. So I told the women in our group hey, just get on the freeway, let them follow you and we'll follow them. So they got on the freeway, we followed them and they followed.
Speaker 2:I ended up following them for about 20 something miles and then when I saw that there were no other cars. I asked the driver of my car to speed up. We drove by and I shot into the car. I shot and killed one man by the name of Mindawin and shot and injured three others in the car, and then we took off. It was about two minutes later. The girls, the women in the other car called my phone and said, hey, the car's not following us anymore. So that's when I knew that they didn't even hear what had happened. So I told the people in my car Did you know?
Speaker 1:you killed him at that point.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I mean, I was sure that I hit him, I was sure that where I aimed and I, but I didn't know that somebody had died. It was the next and I had told everybody in my car don't talk about it. Let's not talk about what just happened. Don't tell the women what happened.
Speaker 2:The next day one of the women called me, said she had to meet up with me and when I met up with her she was crying. She said hey, the cops were at my house. They said who were the guys with you? And I said I don't know. They said somebody died last night. So I told her. I said Okay, and I played too. But I said Wait, did you see anything? And she said no, I go. Did you hear anything? She said no. I said okay, then stick to that, like I don't know what to tell you, but I don't know what happened either. So I didn't tell her what happened. But then I think it was a few months after that they did a complete gang investigation and they arrested me for that murder and they arrested like they did a gang sweep on us and they were investigating several murders.
Speaker 1:A few months later you say a few months later.
Speaker 1:So tell me a couple of questions that kind of come into my mind up to this point, just backtracking to. You know, let's say a year or so prior, when you're in and out of in and out of arrests again, and you're kind of simultaneously trying to work being a son and a family guy but also being being a naughty boy as well, you know, did, did you not have fear of going back in jail? You know, at that point, seeing as though you'd already been in, you know you didn't want to do it. You're obviously enjoying life on the outside. You know, did you never have the, I guess, let's say, the cold light of day and some sensible thoughts, if you like, of listen? If I do bad things, I may end up in jail. I don't like jail. I've already been there before, or you?
Speaker 2:know I would. I would say at that time in my life there was just no emotional literacy on what fear is. There's no acknowledgement like that I'm scared. I didn't know that I was scared to go back in, but there was part of me like okay, this is just what happens. Like I think I didn't have a sense of meaning or purpose or direction in my life. So I just felt like let me just wait until something happens good for me for once in my life, if that makes any type of sense.
Speaker 1:And then now let's kind of fast forward again to the night of the killing and the few months thereafter. Did you not fear being caught at that point? Or did you think that it had disappeared? Because I mean, you knew they were. You knew the police were asking questions, you know, you knew what you'd done. Did you not lie awake at night thinking I was, I could get caught here people asking questions? And I guess the follow-on question to that is did it never dawn on you to think, you know what? Maybe I'll just leave town and get the fuck away from this and start a new life in New York or whatever?
Speaker 2:Well, I had got rid of evidence. After I found out somebody had died, I broke down the gun. I got rid of it already. I knew the people in my car, or I thought the people in my car were not going to say anything. So I thought I was good there and I just didn't talk about it and I just tried to live my life like nothing happened. Because where am I going to take off? To like, why would I take off? Because I didn't do anything and what I was going to do, like I'm going to leave my mom, no, I for me, it was like, okay, let me just live my life like nothing's happened. But yet I knew I just deep, dark secret that I had ended up shooting and killing somebody so you got arrested.
Speaker 1:It was a gang sweep. You got arrested. It was a gang sweep. You got arrested. I was tried for the death penalty, and so at that point, from the point you went inside, you never came out of jail again. Then I guess in England we call it on remand I don't know what you say in the US but you were inside jail pending trial, didn't leave again.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was held with no bail for what they tried me for the death penalty. Yeah, that's what it's called here in the US.
Speaker 1:How did you feel, knowing that you were looking at the death penalty?
Speaker 2:Once again, I think there was no sense of acknowledging of my feelings, it was just something I pushed off to the back of my mind. Okay, let me see how I can get away, let me see how I can beat this case. What evidence do they have?
Speaker 1:So you pled innocent. Yes, you denied it I denied it Until when, all the way through to being found guilty, until I went to trial.
Speaker 2:Until I went to trial. I went to trial and they found me guilty of second degree murder. They did not believe that I did the shooting. I was tried into a gang crime and the district attorney said it didn't matter if I did the shooting or not. If I was there I was equally guilty.
Speaker 2:One of the people in my car had actually turned state's evidence and testified against me, so it was his word against mine. So they didn't. What came back was that the jury did not believe him and that they believed that I was just there. But I was not the shooter, but I had never admitted to it. So I was sentenced to 15 years to life in the California prison system, which at the time was basically the same as a death sentence anyway, because California had not paroled one single life term prisoner since 1977. One single life-term prisoner since 1977. So when I went into prison I just felt okay, now I'm here with the life sentence, I'm going to live the best, the way I know how is. I'm going to still do whatever I want to do to live my life.
Speaker 2:So that's how I lived for about 10 years.
Speaker 1:So by that you mean you were going to live that criminal life, you were going to be involved in prison gangs and crime gangs, gambling, the gambling rackets, drugs, you know, tobacco, later on cell phones, all of that.
Speaker 1:I was involved with all of that how, how prevalent is is is all that kind of stuff, because I mean you know, when we watch tv or when we when we hear stories, you know I guess you see the, the guys with cell phones in there, or the guys taking drugs, or you know guards taking bribes and all and all this kind of stuff. You know some people living an almost normal life on the inside with access to all the kind of creature comforts. I mean, what's it like?
Speaker 2:I mean all of that is happens in there, everything you just named. Of course, sometimes I think the the movies, Hollywood or TV television over-dramatizes it, but I mean it's there, there's drugs in there, there are cell phones, there are guards that take bribes.
Speaker 1:And there's gang leaders, you know, living life on the inside, running their operations from the outside.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is that component also.
Speaker 1:So were you. When you were involved in these rackets and other things you were doing. How were you getting compensated for this, and were you earning what we would consider real money that someone on the outside had for you, or did you get paid in tobaccos and gummy bears?
Speaker 2:A mixture of both. I mean at the height of my own criminal enterprises. I mean I had an entire gambling racket. People could place bets either with what's called canteen food like we took bets with the actual food for bartering and or they could place bets on the streets. So they could place bets and their connection out there had to get Western Union because at the time there was none of this cash app and all of that.
Speaker 2:But back then it was just they had to go to Western Union and then they'd say they want to place a $50 bet, $100 bet, whatever, and then I would cover the bet.
Speaker 2:That's what the gambling racket was and then whatever they placed, they would let me know the number and I would call it in and I have my connection out here, pick up the money so that I could keep a running tally of how much money I have on the streets. Same thing with the cell phones, the drugs, and then inside, I mean on the parlay tickets in there, what somebody can make $24 a month, even just to get my gambling racket that I was pulling in. I mean it was like $500 to $600 a week that I could just pull in and that's just gambling and each of the buildings, because I have a runner in each building that's collecting stuff. I could track what's going on each of my runners know. So it was a pretty. I mean, when I look back now, yeah, it was a pretty elaborate system that we had set up and it was a good numbering system because and that 500 bucks a week that you're making where.
Speaker 1:Where was that? I mean, did that turn into physical money that you kept under your mattress, or was it just a kind of a running total on a spreadsheet, somewhere that you could trade with people?
Speaker 2:So we could trade with it, because then each let's say this building, let's say Joe in building 13, I know he has $200 worth and somebody in the building just won on one of the tickets. So I tell Joe, okay, pay them out 100, there should be 250 left. And then the guys that were running the tickets for me, they get 20% off every ticket they sell. So they were incentivized. Then we have the, they have their stash, but then they could also turn around and sell. Let's say, somebody wants to borrow from them two tuna cans and they have to return three tuna cans. So it became a bartering store so that they, if they needed to get stuff, so and or we, I can move. Okay, here's a hundred dollars in canteen, I want to grab this bag of dope and then we can move it over here. Or I want to get this guitar for for this new guy on the yard that wants the guitar, somebody wants some shoes, so we can just start buying stuff back and forth what was um?
Speaker 1:what was the worst crime you could continue to commit inside? I mean, did you do some bad beatings or any more killing?
Speaker 2:I mean if you're considering rioting and trying to hurt other people and I was involved with that If you're taking advantage of people's demons by selling them drugs, I was involved with that. Or tobacco, like someone who wants to quit, or selling them moonshine so I mean I was involved with all of that taking advantage of somebody's addictions, that if you're or tobacco, like somebody wants to quit, or selling them moonshine, so I mean I was involved with all of that getting somebody's like taking advantage of somebody's addictions. I mean I looked at that now like that. That was all bad at the time I was just making excuses for myself like, oh, if I don't sell it to them somebody else, will what, and did you see other people do all the bad stuff?
Speaker 1:did you witness other other killings and things while while you're in jail? That stuff is a familiar occurrence yeah, it happens.
Speaker 2:It's not a familiar occurrence, but then it happens. I mean it's. It's pretty brutal, what, what human beings can do to each other. That I I saw and experienced in there what's your view of?
Speaker 1:obviously being inside there what? What is your view of why it can't be controlled? You you know. Why are these beatings so possible, these stabbings or shankings or whatever goes down in there? Why is it so possible? Why can't the guards and the authorities control the situations?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, that's an entirely different question, because I think that would lead into why I still do this work of what I do now. Because there's no. If somebody is locked up inside like an animal and they're not treated like a human and they're not given opportunities and and given a way to find redemption or find meaning, and then if perpetuated with violence and loneliness and anger, then of course it's a breeding ground for people to to inflict violence and hate on each other.
Speaker 1:So I guess my question I totally understand and I agree with what you're saying there. My question was probably more around the logistical possibilities of it, insofar as why are the guards unable to control this stuff and prevent it from happening? Are the prisons overpopulated?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, the prisons are overpopulated, but it's almost like, why can't the police out here prevent crime from happening? I mean it's almost like why can't the police out here prevent crime from happening? I mean it's just, it's such a big area and they can't. Their eyes aren't there. Sometimes the guards are part of the reason why things happen. I mean.
Speaker 2:They want it to happen or they yeah, and that's how they divide the groups and if we're all in there fighting each other, then we don't fight the guards, and they could manipulate and they could still continue the pressure and and so 10 years of continuing that life?
Speaker 1:what? What happened? Why did you change?
Speaker 2:well, I mean like, yeah, 10 years of just living the way I wanted to live. One of the things that always gave me escape, though, are were books, and I have, uh, uh, give me one second. Okay, sorry about that, don't worry. So, yeah, I think one thing that always gave me escape were books.
Speaker 2:I love books, I go. I have this habit of reading books. Go back into acknowledgements, read who influenced them, go down these rabbit trails and, particular, I was always fascinated on books on entrepreneurship too. And it was around the 10th, 12th year of my sentence.
Speaker 2:Several things had happened where I saw a picture of my niece, my younger brother's daughter, when she was born, and when I first looked at her picture it looked exactly like my little brother as a kid and it took me back like man, well, how did my life end up like this? Like this, was us innocent? Like, how did I end up in prison? Am I supposed to die in here? I found also that same time that my found out that my grandfather died. My father's father, which then also asked, made me question like man, look what my father had created during his 35 years on earth and look, and I contrasted that with what I had done, living this life and now supposed to die in prison. And then those questions were coming around. Then I became fascinated with books on the saints, in particular stories of the saints that had failed in some way or another.
Speaker 2:Like, I became fascinated with it, the saints, saints, yeah, saints. So then those of course then led to books on entrepreneurship, I mean mindfulness and spirituality and personal development. So all of these books I was reading all came up together and then I I'm sorry, give me one more second, sorry about that, okay, yeah, so then I became fascinated with like just books on the Saints, which then led to books on mindfulness, spirituality, and it just became like this perfect storm in my head where suddenly I was reading like these meditations. And then I was on the yard one day and I was thinking to myself, like why do I have to view prison as punishment? Why can't I just view this as a place where I can remake myself, even if I'm supposed to die in here? And of course, that's where the answer comes back from the universe. Like you can.
Speaker 2:And I remember that moment very well. Like I was standing out there on the prison yard. It was early morning, the sun was barely coming up over the hills and I could feel its warmth in the little blades of grass. I could see the individual drops of dew and up above me, in the razor wire, I heard a sparrow chirping. And I tell you what the sparrows have probably been chirping my entire prison term. I had never heard it, but that day I heard it and that day is where I think my awakening began, where I saw like wait, we are all just humans here, some of them much further along, some of these men perhaps not even awakened, but we're all just on this journey and that is where it began for me.
Speaker 2:One of the first things I did was I checked into therapy and I wanted to. I checked into therapy to talk about my father's death and what that led me down. Of course, being the consummate bookworm, then I became fascinated with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross's model on grief and dying and mourning and loss, which then I read more of her books and other books around it. Then I saw this huge need of other men around me also unable to grieve, mourning the loss of their loved ones or mourning their wives that had left them mourning even friendships and relationships that they had with other men being uprooted from those friendships by being transferred to a prison and not being able to process that. All of this I saw. So I I put together a syllabus and I submitted it to the prison psychologist to say like hey, there's this huge need here. The psychologist loved the syllabus and we created the prison's first ever grief and loss group.
Speaker 2:So it was in that group that I saw for the first time men able to grieve and mourn and openly cry and heal, and that stirred something deep inside me, where I, like man, I feel there's meaning in my life, there's fulfillment and, of course, being the bookworm, I became fascinated with books on childhood, adolescent theory, group psychodynamics, because I wanted to find out how to facilitate groups and create more groups.
Speaker 2:And then I started creating more groups, getting involved with more groups, facilitating groups, and suddenly I felt here, I am in some discarded, forgotten corner of the world, yet I felt alive. I felt I was exactly where I was meant to be and I felt I had meaning, I had purpose and that is just how I live. And for me it was like I'm free. I felt free, I'm, even though I'm incarcerated. I feel absolutely free and I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be and that's how I live for the next four or five years of my life and at that point, so you, you stopped committing any further crimes inside, you stopped even even the gambling rackets and things you, you, you, you stopped I walked away from all of that I walked away from all of that and at that point was this was there an end in sight or was there still no paroling in california?
Speaker 2:there was still no parole. There was still no parole. I mean, there was a ruling that came out in 2007 because a woman prisoner had argued all the way to supreme court and they said what's the difference between life without possibility of parole or life with possibility? Because California, there's 30 years of data showing they're not paroling anybody. So the courts had come down with these standards of who can be found suitable and who's not suitable. And I fell under every standard of not being suitable because I had multiple arrests, violence and continued write-ups and all these things. That doesn't apply to me.
Speaker 2:But after my spare and razor wire moment, it wasn't even about that. It was like I'm just gonna live my life, like how this is, and I feel free, I feel whole, I have meaning, I have purpose. So I there was never back on my mind. Hopefully one day I get to go home. But, but then, as time progressed, I had this resolve oh, I am going to go home. I started to see other lifers go to the parole board Very little like maybe less than 2%, but they were going home. And then, when I went to the parole board, it was there that I told them for the first time. You know what. Actually, I lied at trial, I got rid of evidence, I coached witnesses, I was the shooter, I shot and killed uh, mr minowin. I put in action these events. In fact, these are things I still got involved with after I was arrested. You know the things, and I owned every single thing, every single one of the things I I had done, and eventually they paroled me. They said you're?
Speaker 1:you got paroled on that paroling session or did you get a second one?
Speaker 2:I got I got paroled on the one after when I had went in, they said you have way too many write-ups, there's no way we would ever parole you. Did you think that we were going to parole you coming in and I'm like I was here to hold myself accountable? It wasn't to be found suitable and so how many?
Speaker 2:how much time is there between those two parole hearings they denied me they gave me a five-year denial, so I was supposed to wait five years, but I filed a petition to advance my hearing about 14 months after. So I went back in and they paroled me at that second hearing about 15, 16 months after the first hearing, which was pretty, very, very rare, because people thought there's no way Quan is going to get out and I went up and I was from Sybil.
Speaker 1:And when you had your Sparrow moment and you committed to the good life and the new life, what did your friends inside, the ones who were your criminal associates, the ones who were your friends, what did they say?
Speaker 2:I had handed them the connections. I gave them all the connections. Like you want this? Who wants to take care of the gambling art? I walked away from all of it. I was like this is your guys' and you want to get involved with it.
Speaker 1:But they didn't try to peer pressure you. They weren't like come on, don't be a pussy, come and stay with us. So, um, you're in that second parole hearing. Do they tell you in the hearing we are, we are paroling you, or do they go away and think about it and then they write to you?
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, uh, what was that question?
Speaker 1:when you were in the second parole hearing. Do they tell you in that hearing that they're going to parole you, or do they go away and make a decision and write to you?
Speaker 2:They made a decision and then they brought me back in and then they told me I thought they were going to deny me, but they paroled me.
Speaker 1:What is that feeling? I've got a court case going on in the UK right now. Nothing, obviously nothing as serious or as exciting as this, but in terms of where I'm fighting with a guy in business, legal things and I've had something that was very important to me that two weeks ago I got the email saying you've won and I, literally I was up Mount Everest at the time. I was climbing Mount Everest and you know I was exhausted. I get this email when I get Wi-Fi and I'm like I mean like the excitement in me was like off the charts, but I mean that was to do with a little bit of money. That didn't really mean anything. I mean you know, you've just found out that you've been given your whole fucking life back. I mean what? What do you? Do? You explode in the room? Do you start kissing everybody, or what happens?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, for me it was because I thought they were going to deny me and I shared a story openly in my memoir, like I thought I was going to get denied for sure. They came back, said the words like we find that you're no longer currently dangerous. So for me it was there's a five month wait after you're found suitable For me. I knew right away. I just felt in my gut the governor's not going to rescind my date, he's going to let me go. So instead of me putting my head out to the streets because I'll worry about the streets when I get there Let me use these next five months to mourn the relationships that I'm going to leave behind. Let me use these five months to close out some of the relationships that I know I will never see. Any of these, my friends, these friendships. So that's how I continue to still live for the next five months. Like I was very intentional about being present with each of them before I left and you left.
Speaker 1:you walk out, you smell that free air for the first time, and what did you think life was gonna be for you then?
Speaker 2:I mean for me by that time it's like what does God, what does the universe have for me? So I've just been living my life very open-hearted, very open-minded, like I follow what I call, like you know, like my intuition, my gut and people say, the small voice of God, whatever you call it. That's how I've lived since I've been home. I've just our opportunities open up. Does this feel right? Does this feel in alignment with how I want to show up in the world? If it does, I go that. If I go that route. If it doesn't, I don't go that route. And what?
Speaker 1:and so you got paroled, you got released. When was it? 2000 and 2015, november of 2015. That's what are we in now. Okay, so 10 years you've been out now, almost 10 years now. Yeah, almost 10 years.
Speaker 2:How old are you? I am 50, I always have to yeah, I'm 50.
Speaker 1:You got that magic Vietnamese skin that makes you look 25.
Speaker 2:My bones are hurting my knees are hurting from my mouth. Yeah, I'm definitely not 25. Thank you though.
Speaker 1:Okay, so you came out when you were 40. Talk to me about life now. I know you've written the book, you have the business. You know you help other people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, talk to me six months six months after I paroled a, I created my first company. It's a commercial cleaning company. So I used to work on the prison hospital so I used to be able to part of part of the cleaning crew, so I kind of knew that the company's still running to this day. I have six employees or of them also formerly incarcerated my best workers by far, was it?
Speaker 1:was it? Was that a cut? Was that a conscious decision, as in you were going to employ ex-cons?
Speaker 2:yes, absolutely, absolutely, because I know like what they they're. They're looking for opportunities. I know their work ethic. I knew that that I would be getting great employees that were overlooked in the marketplace.
Speaker 1:How do your customers feel about that? I mean, it must be a hard marketing ploy.
Speaker 2:Some of them we don't even talk about. I mean, like their contract is with me so I don't have to tell them. But some of them that when we start talking about like how did I get involved? Like I openly share, like I'm formerly incarcerated, I created this company and a lot of them are very open oh, this is great. You and a lot of them are very open, oh, this is great.
Speaker 1:You're giving opportunities. So you started that business. Sorry, so you've had that for nine years. When did you write the book? When did that come in?
Speaker 2:I wrote the book. The book was published during the pandemic yeah, Sparrow and the Razor Wire Published during the pandemic. I was very fortunate to have quite a bit of support from a community of people that I've been able to connect with out here. They helped support it and it hit Amazon bestseller status on the first week. I've been able to donate over 3,000 books nationally to different men and women throughout prisons, and then late last year I was able to get my book onto this learning platform that's inside these tablets that are inside prisons. So now over 850,000 men and women have free access to my book across the prisons in the US.
Speaker 1:Do you find a lot of guys in jail who've been reading it, reaching out to you?
Speaker 2:Yes, I actually do. Those are my favorite letters, when they write me and thank me for writing the book. Sometimes I go back into prison and people recognize me or they let me know like, oh, you're the one who wrote Spare and Rays Wire, thank you for writing it. I've met many men and women that have come home, that were former lifers that tell me you are the reason why I am home. Thank you for writing your book. It really helped me prepare for the parole board.
Speaker 1:What exactly is the book? I guess it's the kind of story that we've talked about now the whole life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's my memoir and in it I share. How did I come to my own sense of freedom years before I paroled for my life sentence Is?
Speaker 1:your mother still alive.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And did she come to visit you in jail? How was that relationship that?
Speaker 2:relationship has blossomed. I purchased my first home three years after getting out, moved my mom home with me. She still lives here with me. Earlier, I had to turn off the camera because she's downstairs with a puppy and she was talking when I didn't realize that her voice was killing me.
Speaker 1:Do you and the family still talk about the past? Do you talk about things with friends, or are you trying to live for the present and the future? Whilst I guess everything has made you who you are today, I'm very present with my past.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think my past is a big part of me. So I mean that's why the nonprofit I work for I'm the executive director for a nonprofit called Defy Adventures. I oversee our chapter here in Southern California. We run a seven-month training program in the prisons career readiness, personal development and entrepreneurship training and it culminates in a business pitch competition that's Judge Shark Tank style, by business volunteers that we bring into the community with us. So I'm constantly inside the prisons. This is my life work because now I'm able inside the prisons. This is my life work Because now I'm able to provide opportunities for others that are still incarcerated.
Speaker 1:So that shark tank style pitching that actually happens inside the jail, yes, and the winners, they actually get funding or mentorship or whatever to start these businesses they have.
Speaker 2:IOUs for once they get home. I mean, the purpose of our program is not to have everyone going to create a business. The purpose is to instill in them the entrepreneurial mindset which we believe is the superpower that helps them on their prison and, more importantly, their re-entry journey once they come home. Like you know, the lessons of grit, resiliency, pivoting all of those are great skill sets to incorporate and to have in your journey of life.
Speaker 1:What else do you think is wrong in the prison system or what would you change? I mean, I guess obviously, even as a criminal, I would imagine even obviously you're a reformed, been reformed for a long time but I would imagine even criminals themselves, if they're being honest, must admit and accept that prison needs to exist and for some people they belong in there for a very long time. But what would you do with the system to get better results?
Speaker 2:well, if I had my magic wand, what I would do is if somebody commits a crime and you're removing them from society, because that's what prison is supposed to do, right, but then what's the purpose? What's the like? I think, as a, we have to ask ourselves that what is the purpose of removing this person? To heal them right, to get them to redeem, get them to acknowledge their wrongs, and then, after that, how do we help them to heal and to correct? So there has to be that paradigm shift on how and what prisons are for. If I think inherently, we have to ask ourselves do we believe in second chances or third chances or not? If the answer is yes, then what's the purpose of prison? If the purpose of prison is just punishment, then we're going to get these same results. If the purpose of prison is rehabilitation, what does true rehabilitation look like? What does investing in people that we're removing from society so that when they come back to our communities, healed, they can be productive, they can be contributing members of society, and I think these will be very grateful members of society for this opportunity.
Speaker 2:But we don't look at people getting locked up that way.
Speaker 1:So my magic wand would have to change that paradigm first and how can my I mean how can my audience interact with you, help you, help your cause? You know, I guess you what's, what's your aimed outcome when you do these podcasts and you tell your story?
Speaker 2:I mean, I, I, uh. My aimed outcome is to just change the narrative of what it means to be formerly incarcerated. Change the narrative of what it means for somebody that has committed the worst crime that most people will say, like yo, this is the worst crime. Is there a possibility of redemption? So that's my overarching narrative. If your audience wants to find me, they can find me at sparrow in the razor wirecom. Um. I can be found on all social media, at kwan with an x and then when between my first and last name, just add an x on all social media. If they want to find out more about the work I do in a non-profit, they could look up defyventuresorg. So it's d-e-f-y ventures have you got a wife?
Speaker 1:Have you got kids? Yes, yes, to both your wife and kids. How old are the kids? 15. I'm trying to do the math it's a stepchild. How do you behave parent, whatever the words are to make sure that they don't fall? You know, fall down the same paths that you went down and I guess you know, as you said, you were living a double life. You know you had that great relationship with your mom. You were good at school. She didn't know what was going on. How do you make sure you can be, I guess, a cuddly parent and protect them at the same time?
Speaker 2:I mean listen to them, ask questions, I think ask and see how she sees the world. It's not about.
Speaker 1:I mean, kids are very, very smart, you think, as much as obviously you love your parents and that relationship is strong. You think you were missing being spoken to more, being asked and understood. Oh, absolutely. Well, listen, I guess it's been amazing to talk to you and, uh, you know, it's, uh, you know, I guess, a humbling honor to, uh, you know, to have a podcast at times like this to be able to. You know, I mean, I I talked to a lot of people about a lot of things, but you know, um, I guess you know, some things are fun, some things interesting, but there's very few situations you get in life like this to be able to talk about the unthinkable and the background that goes to it, and also to see the absolutely transformative journey over what's ultimately probably a 40-year lifespan, of story that you've told me, mate. So I really thank you for your time and I'm sure my audience has enjoyed listening or watching as much as I have, and you know I'm honoured to be able to share the story. You know, I hope we can raise some more awareness and you know, I hope we can keep in touch ourselves. Ok, thank you so much for having me, matt. Thank you, thank you, mate. Thank you, mate. Listen, don't, don't go, don't go. I'll just um, I'm just gonna press stop recording. Thanks for tuning in to no bollocks with matt haycox.
Speaker 1:Today's conversation was packed with actionable insights and I'm super, super grateful that you joined us now. Our community now boasts 160 000 downloads a month of this podcast, and that is a testament to entrepreneurs just like you who refuse to settle for mediocrity. So don't miss out. Subscribe now and gain exclusive access to the conversations that can transform your business and transform your life. Also, while you're at it, if you could visit wwwmatt-haycoxcom or click the link in the show notes below, and please sign up to the no Bollocks newsletter. That's like the sister newsletter that lives with this podcast. Every week, I send two emails and in just 10 minutes, you're going to gain more knowledge than most people doing a three-year MBA. So please subscribe, rate, share this episode with someone who needs a no Bollocks boost and, until next time, keep hustling and keep winning.
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