Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
Welcome to 'Stripping Off with Matt Haycox,' where we bare it all on business, money, and life. Get ready to peel back the layers of success with entrepreneur, investor, funding expert, and mentor with over 20 years of experience building and growing businesses, Matt Haycox.
Tune into steamy conversations with industry titans, celebrities, and successful entrepreneurs as they strip down their stories of triumphs, setbacks, and the raw realities of their journey to the top. Matt is going down on business, money, and life, and will take DMCs to new heights!
Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
"They Made Me The Villain" - The REAL Reason I Was Forced Out Of Leeds
Tell us what you like or dislike about this episode!! Be honest, we don't bite!
Framed as a "villain," frozen out by his own club, and now battling a system that holds Black managers back, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink is setting the record straight.
In this unfiltered interview, the football legend sits down with Matt Haycox to finally tell his side of the story: from a rough upbringing where football "saved him” to the explosive truth behind his exit from Leeds United, and the systemic barriers he's faced ever since.
This is part football memoir, part-unflinching look at the brutal politics of the beautiful game, told by one of the Premier League's greatest strikers.
Timestamps:
0:00 - Intro
2:20 - Rewind to Jimmy's Childhood
5:54 - Transitioning to Football from Rough Beginnings
20:15 - Peter Ridsdale and David O'Leary
32:10 - From Athletico to Chelsea
41:58 - The End of Playing and The Start of Coaching
46:25 - The Hardest Thing About Being a Manager
47:35 - Racism with Port Vale in 2014?
58:44 - Assistant Coach for England
1:00:46 - All Things Money
1:03:02 - Best Financial Decision Other Than Football?
1:03:49 - Has Your View of Success Changed Since You Were a Kid?
1:06:23 - Outro
Until this day, I'm telling you, I wanted to stay. I never thought of leaving. Was there ever a time when you could have gone down a very wrong path? I went in a way in a wrong path.
SPEAKER_03:Football did say the richdell came in, and if you could pay£50 instead of£10, he'd want to pay£100, you know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I had one negotiation with him on contract. We fell out. We fell out really big time.
SPEAKER_03:Do you think this was probably O'Leary's way of getting rid of you without getting rid of you?
SPEAKER_01:The moment I signed the transfer request, not a word of a lie, five minutes after it's Os Guys button.
SPEAKER_03:So now I'm the villain. In 2014, Port Vail chairman said he removed your name from consideration to be their manager. The owner of Port Vale is a coward. A report by the Black Footballers Partnership revealed that 43% of Premier League footballers are black, but only 4.4% of managers in English football are black.
SPEAKER_01:I can only give you my experience, and my experience is.
SPEAKER_03:Guys, Matt Haycook's here. But today I have got footballing legend, Star Striker. He's played for Leeds United, Chelsea, Atletico Madrid. He's now coaching the England team. Ladies and gentlemen, Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank.
SPEAKER_00:Hi guys.
SPEAKER_03:I was gonna say, even with my absolute non-existent lack of football knowledge, yours is a name that even that even I know. I mean, it's very good to today, you know, you always see like names on on shirts and stuff, and you know people going crazy, you know. Being from Leeds, growing up in Leeds, uh, your name was a name that was always bandied around by my friends.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, Leeds. Uh that is where it really started.
SPEAKER_03:Let's just re-rewind to when you were a kid and how how your actual interest in football began and uh what you're up to. Yeah, you're a bit of a naughty boy in your in your day as well, weren't you?
SPEAKER_01:I was I was that that was just the area that that um um I was living in. Um and um that is not an excuse, uh, it's still wrong. Um, but you get exposed to it, and uh I wasn't strong enough to stay out of that. So were you from like a poor area or a poor very, very, very poor. Uh my mom was by herself to raising all the kids, she had to work. So majority of the time, my my my sister and my brother were looking after me. Um, and um, yeah, you you get a lot of free time and you lot a lot of time outside and all that kind of stuff. So so yeah, and and my brother that who is three years older than me, he he was always playing football, and I always wanted to do the same thing that my brother was doing, and um, I was always following him. So it was because of him that I really got into football. When you say you got into it, I mean you were playing at school, you were playing in in local teams, or just yeah, um, first of all, I I always had a ball under my my arm. If I weren't with friends, I was by myself playing with the ball. And at school all the time. I I I I played at school with with with other with other guys, and I was in the school team. The school team was quite successful. Um I think we we we went to uh to a turn tournament where we end up being I think sixth in the whole country. Yeah, football was my everything. So um I was quite late um becoming a professional footballer. Um, and uh I end up playing, my brother as well became a professional footballer. I ended up playing for one year with my brother in the same team at AZ. This is back in Holland. This is back in Holland, yeah. Um, it was actually quite strange because uh at that time I was a right midfielder, right winger, and so was my brother. Yeah, so we were in a way competing competing for one spot. I was then uh released um from that club, uh and I went uh uh I went to the non-leagues again. Um and from the non-league um I went to Portugal, where um in the non-league in Holland uh an agent called Humphrey Nyman, who became my agent uh for the rest of my career, got me a trial in Portugal at Campo Mayorens. First, actually, he got me a trial in Austria, and the club didn't want me. Um and then um I got a trial in uh Campo Mayorense in Portugal in the smallest town ever. I think uh there was like I think 20, 30,000 people living in that that that town. Um I did well, they offered me a contract. Um, and now out of a sudden from non-league, two weeks, three weeks later, I was playing in the highest division in Portugal. Yeah, that's how crazy it it can be in in football.
SPEAKER_03:So just going back to when you um when you were starting, so you you got your first professional contract. Um had you left the kind of gang life behind by then, or was there any crossover?
SPEAKER_01:Well, uh it it was it no no no that that was that was that was that was gone, well gone.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I mean w was there ever a time when you you know you could have gone down a very wrong path. I mean, did did football help you make the right direction?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I I went in a way in a wrong path. Um I was hanging out with with the wrong people. Uh uh we were doing things that that that we shouldn't shouldn't do. You know? Um and of course it it it could have been uh um bad. Um majority of these guys um majority of these guys are are are um or dead now and or or um are living a very difficult life, you know. There was only one and that's my best mate, and we became professional footballers, you know. He's still your best mate now, he's still my best mate now, yeah. And he's an agent now. Uh so he became a professional footballer uh in Holland. I became a professional footballer, um, and I moved out. Um, and I think that was the best thing that could happen to me on the when I was 23, just to be on my own and and concentrate on football. Um, so yes, football did save me.
SPEAKER_03:And what did it feel like? You know, that that first day, you know, play playing your first professional match on the field in front of the fans.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that that that started obviously when I was 17. That was 17. Uh and and what what what the feeling that's what you're doing for. But when I was 17, I thought, oh, I've made it.
SPEAKER_03:I was gonna say, did you feel like you'd made it or did you uh know it was the beginning of the journey?
SPEAKER_01:No, I thought I I made it. I I was I was earning I was still living at home. I was earning something like 250 pounds a week. Um and I thought I made it. I could help my mom with a little bit of groceries and stuff. Uh I I turned up a training whenever I wanted. And um, you know, I I I thought I was the man, but I wasn't. So um once again uh uh I was late on training and um I was dismissed and I could go back home and and my contract was was was uh terminated. So um that was a big lesson for me. Um did you worry it could have been the end? Well i in a way I was I was lucky because um I had that much potential that AZ Alkmaar straight away uh offered me uh a place. Um so I went from Telsa to AZ Alkmaar, um where where I got an opportunity, and um but my brother was at AZ Alkmaar, so we were going to training together, and uh my luck was my brother was a lot more serious than I was at the time, a lot more better with timekeeping and stuff. So my brother, in a way, took me under the wing that I was never late, that I was uh professional and all that kind of stuff. So um but then after so I got a two-year contract, and then after two years, the manager didn't didn't didn't fancy me. So from from from that moment uh I was released and I had to go back to non non-league. Um and I was still living at my parents, uh, at my mom's house. Um but now I'm I'm um I am um at at non-league and I need another job. So I I I was working in a bakery um to get extra money. So I I have to wake up like really early to get to the bakery to make sure that the bread is is is is is is ready and in the afternoon um late I'm training uh two or three times a week because it's non-league, and on a Saturday you play and thank God one day an agent uh called Humphrey Nyman uh spots me. I said, Look, listen, um I've got a couple of contacts um and they're looking for a striker. What what what what do you think? Um and I was open for it. So um first I was sent to uh Austria, didn't work out, came back, and then the second one was uh uh Portugal, Campo Mayor, Campo Mayorens, and um I had a good trial and they offered me a contract, and now all of a sudden I'm I'm uh I'm playing in the highest league, you know, in in in in in Portugal, all by myself. Um very coincidental at the time my girlfriend was was pregnant with with my first um and that was uh 27 years ago. You know, so um so and and that is where i i i it it it it kicked off and and um that is where I was by myself, I could uh I had to concentrate on on football. Uh there were no distractions. Um and and I think that year uh camp mayor went down but I scored 14 goals and I had quite quite a good season. Um and from from there, end of the season, I was now out of a sudden sold by Camp Mayor to Boa Vista for at the time 300 grand.
SPEAKER_03:Was that big big money back then?
SPEAKER_01:Uh in Portugal, yeah, in Portugal, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Um what kind of what kind of wages were you earning at that time?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I was uh at Camp Mayor, I was on uh I think something like 10 grand a month, something like that. So two and a half grand a week. That was reasonably reasonably normal? In Portugal, yes. For me, no. Oh yeah. For me, that was big money. Yeah, because my contract at at at Leeds and and and and Az were like 200, 250 at at Telstar and and at uh and at AZ, maybe 300, 350 a week. So to not out of a so and and then when I had to go to the leads, just to be clear, that's pounds because I've never yeah, more or less.
SPEAKER_03:So I mean not hundreds of that because that normally now when we talk about football and say 300 a week, 200 a week, we mean 300 grand, right? Yeah, no, forget that.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, it's not but I wish no, no, but um uh and but what I'm not saying is I was at at um I had to go back to non-league, and you were getting a little bit of expenses and all that kind of stuff, but I was I was really working at a uh at a uh bread factory in a in a bakery, really. Yeah, so I was earning peanuts, yeah. So for for for for me now to go from that to that and earning out of a sudden 130, 140 grand uh a year, that was that was massive for me. And then being sold to uh to Boa Vista, and uh yeah, there you earn more, uh, a lot more because now all of a sudden in one and a half in one and a bit years I'm playing for I think the third, no, fourth, fifth biggest club in in Portugal. Yeah, we are playing in Europe, in the UEFA Cup against Inter Milan and all them them kind of uh clubs, and um I'm earning now three times, four times more than my Campo Mayor Ren's contract. So, and that is in really a year's time, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And you had a good run at Boa Vista, you scored 20 goals in games, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Me me and Nuno Gomez were playing up front and we were like scoring for fun uh together. Um uh we had Latapi, uh Russell Latapi behind us, um Erwin Sanchez. So we were we we we were we were on fire, we were on fire, and I think that that year I scored like something like 27 goals uh in total, and we won the cup, the Portuguese Cup. We won. Um, and then uh Leeds came.
SPEAKER_03:Um how did that come about? We were you looking for a move or did they come up?
SPEAKER_01:No, I I I had three-year contract. I had a three-year contract. And that was just my first year. I I wasn't looking at a at a move. Um my agent uh uh later on when I found out my agent had contacts in in um in in England. Um he uh had contacts with this scout who was uh called Ian McNeil, who has passed away. Was a Scottish guy who was working uh uh for a few clubs. One of those clubs was uh Leeds, who uh he had a really good relationship with uh with uh George Graham. George Graham had just taken over at Leeds uh that year, where Leeds were at the bottom of the league, more or less, and he came in and and and saved them and got them to the 11th spot. But he wanted to to totally renew the team. So um my agent said to Ian uh McNeil, look, um you need to follow this boy I had that I have in in Portugal, he's doing absolutely well. Go and go and see him, you know, go and go and scout him, go go and go and follow him. Don't follow him one or two matches, but follow him five, six. So Ian McNeil flew over a few times and and and and saw me play. And then he went to um uh Josh Graham and said to Josh Graham, look, I've I've seen this boy there and there, you know. I think you need to come in and and and and see him. So uh at the end of the season, more or less, we were playing uh Victoria Setuba. I won't forget this. Josh Graham was on the uh in the stand watching the game. I had a really good game, I think I scored. Um and in the opposite team, there was a guy called Bruno Ribero, and um he had a very good game. So Josh Graham came over to see me, but he caught also Bruno Ribeiro. So then at the end of the season, we played um the Portuguese Cup. I was on the bench for the cup. Um Josh Graham was again on the bench. Uh my agent told me that. Um I thought, shit, I'm on the bench, he's not going to uh you know, uh he's not going to take me because I'm I'm on the bench, he can't see me. I came in the last 20-25 minutes. We won. Did you score? Uh I no, I didn't score. Um we won and um and straight after the game, or straight a week after the game, they put a bit in for me and it was accepted. And they also took Bruno Ribero uh from Victoria Setubo. Yeah, they they uh they bought me for two million quid.
SPEAKER_03:And and that was massive money back then, right?
SPEAKER_01:Well, uh it was it, yeah, it it was substantial. It was substantial. Uh it was not the biggest transfer, uh, but it but it but it was substantial for somebody that um nobody knew. So you were on two and a half grand a week at Boa Vista? I was on no, I was on uh I was on uh substantial more now. I was on substantial more. Can you tell us what? Uh it it becomes bigger figures now now. So uh I I was I was I was I was on I was on yeah good money. Um and then obviously when I signed at at at least don't get me wrong, uh even at Camp Merez it's good money. And then when I signed for for Leeds, it was uh good money as well, you know. Uh not the biggest, uh, because still nobody knew me. Um, but it was uh I could buy a house, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Uh what I did when I went to where did you buy your first Leeds house?
SPEAKER_01:In Alwoodley. Oh, is it the one we were talking about together? Yeah, that that was my first uh house.
SPEAKER_03:My neighbor, my my neighbor who we didn't know.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, exactly, exactly. I loved that house in uh uh in in Leeds. Uh but no, I I loved Leeds, I still do. Uh it's it hurts me that they are not in the Premier League now. The Premier League is not the same without Leeds. Um that stadium, Allen Road, those fans, they need to be in in the Premier League. Hopefully, these new owners that they have now are really serious people and and and you know um do the business really, really well and invest in the in the squad properly.
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SPEAKER_03:When you were there, was that the Ridgedale era or was it just before?
SPEAKER_01:When I signed, it was uh not Ridgale, it was somebody else. Ken Bates was it Ken Bates? No, no, no, no, no, no, no. It was the PLP. Uh uh I don't know the the name anymore, but then the year later, Peter Riddale took over. So I had a year with Peter Riddale.
SPEAKER_03:And I mean, I again as a non-football person, the stuff I remember from then was the talk of extravagant spending, and you know, that uh you know Ridsdale came in, and if he could pay£50 instead of£10, he'd want to pay£100, you know.
SPEAKER_01:That era I I I I didn't um I I was gone. So so the year that he took over, um so I had one year with him, I had one negotiation with him on contract. We we fell out. We fell out, we fell out really big time, and I felt that he he done me with with David O'Leary.
SPEAKER_03:Done you in what way? I think you didn't want to work with O'Leary or done you over money?
SPEAKER_01:Well on both. Um I think I think I was George Graham's man, wasn't I? George Graham, I was George Graham's prodigy in a way. George Graham came to see me in in Portugal. He he took me on, he he thought that I was uh uh good uh and and and and I was his project. Yeah, so when he brought me over, I was his signing, really. Uh David Toledo was the assistant. Um and I really played for George Graham. Really uh after games, George Graham used to hammer me or give me love, or what was rarely, because George Graham is not the kind of person to give you too much love, you know. Uh he wants to be he wants to have you always on your toes. And then when when George Graham left to Spurs, things changed.
SPEAKER_03:Um and that so so he left, O'Leary became manager.
SPEAKER_01:O'Leary became manager.
SPEAKER_03:So you had one season under one, one season under the other.
SPEAKER_01:No, I had I had one and a bit season under um um George Graham, and then mid-season, more or less, he left, and David O'Leary took over and became the manager, and then uh uh Eddie Gray became the assistant.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, was it a particularly big difference in management style, or was it just that you and O'Leary had personal friction?
SPEAKER_01:It's it's it's always it's always difficult for an assistant to take over and now all of a sudden became becomes the manager. It's not easy because when you're assistant, people players look different at you and say different things, and just their body language is is different.
SPEAKER_03:As then you don't you don't respect them as much.
SPEAKER_01:No, you you do respect them, but they have got a different role. They're not the boss, are they? You are you you are different to the boss. Everybody is, you know, so um you have a different kind of relationship with the assistant than you have with the boss. So my relationship with with with David was was alright, but I'm Dutch, and I wear my heart on my sleeves, you know, and and and I will say things, not disrespectfully, but I will say the truth. Um and that might sometimes go in the wrong way, while I don't mean it disrespectfully, you know. That might have happened. I don't know. I don't know. I'm just assuming here that might have happened with with with David David O'Leary. And he he wanted to bring the youngsters through. He wanted to, he had his own vision, really. And that is rightly so. He's the manager now. I am George Graham's by. I will never be David O'Leary's by. So if I if I if I do really well under David O'Leary, I'm still George Graham's by. He's not gonna get the credit. Yeah. So we're now having negotiations for a new contract. Because I signed four years and I had two years left. And they wanted to, they wanted to protect their asset, obviously. And when you have got two years left, that is the time to start uh talking about a new contract. And I wanted to stay until this day, I'm telling you, I wanted to stay. I never thought of leaving Leeds United. That's that tells you how much fun and how much I loved it there. I did not really want to go. Not at all. What happened was we had negotiations, they made an offer, I said no. Because that was not the market rate for somebody that has just become uh uh an international player, yeah, um, and played for the Dutch national team, uh, went to the World Cup, and on top of that, that year where we started negotiations, won the golden boot. I was top scorer that year. And no other lead striker for a long time has become top scorer, yeah. So I said, just pay the market rate, you know, just as as everybody um in business or in football would would say, you know, and they were far from it. Far from it.
SPEAKER_03:And this this is an O'Leary decision or a Ridgedale or a bit of bad. I will never know.
SPEAKER_01:I will never know. But the negotiations, well, I I would think that it is an O'Leary decision because because uh end of the day, in those days, definitely the manager decides uh uh what what what what what what happens, you know? So so now um I'm saying I'm not going to sign it.
SPEAKER_03:And you think, I mean, given that O'Leary uh sorry, given that Ridsdale went on to spend like an absolute lunatic after that. After that, do you do you think that this was probably O'Leary's way of getting rid of you without getting rid of you? I'm get I'm gonna get there.
SPEAKER_01:What they've done is okay, if you're not signing, we're not gonna play you. So I'm saying, I'm not signing. I can't sign for this. You you have to you have to sign this. So I'm saying I'm not signing this. Um I want this, this, this, and I want this and this and this in the contract. Um that's not gonna happen, Jimmy. That's not gonna happen. Well then you need to leave, they said. Then I'll leave. So now all of a sudden Chelsea comes in for me. Yeah, but we're not selling you for uh uh uh um to a to uh to an English club. And if you want to go, if you want to go, then uh you have to ask for a transfer request. But I don't want to go. I don't want to go. Yeah, but you have to ask for a transfer request if you if you but I don't want to go. Yeah, but then you need to sign. No, I'm not gonna sign. Yeah, but then we we're going to sell you. I said, okay.
SPEAKER_03:And why did it make you ask for a transfer request? Is that to make you look bad in front of the fans?
SPEAKER_01:So so here it comes. If you're going to go, if if you're going to go, you need to ask for a transfer request. Yeah, but then I lose all my signing on fees. Why, why would I why would I ask for a transfer request? A, I don't want to go. A I want to to to to to to um to stay here, and b, you know, I I don't want to lose my my transfer request. So here it comes. So, Jimmy, you know what? You ask for a transfer request. We sign a paper that you won't lose your your signing on fees. Yeah? So this is going on for quite a while behind the scenes. So I'm getting fed up, yeah, of the whole the whole thing, knowing they don't want me here.
SPEAKER_03:And you're not playing at this point either.
SPEAKER_01:I'm only playing, I'm only playing. This was still preseason. I'm playing preseason matches, and I'm getting stick right, left, right, and center from the Leeds fans. Yeah, because they don't know the full story. So I sign uh uh the transfer request, yeah. The moment I sign the transfer request, not a word of a lie, five minutes after it's on Sky Spot News that I want to go and I've asked for the transfer request. While that is not the story, yeah. So, because also if I ask for a transfer request, yeah, I won't get my signing on fees. I got my signing on fees when I left. So that tells me they wanted me out, and they they wanted me out in a way that I looked bad, not that they were selling me. Yeah, because they was good, if they would have done. It's a different way, they would have got the stick from the Leeds fans because I was liked, I was loved. Yeah, so now I'm the villain, and that's how it happened, and that's how I fell out with with Richdale because he made me look bad and me like that I didn't want to be there. While that was not the case, so then um I ended up going to Atletico Madrid because they didn't want to sell me to Leeds. Um, played a year at Atletico Madrid, and then when I came back to Leeds, we played uh uh when I came back to Chelsea, we played Leeds in the league, and I was on the pitch, and Richdale came to me and wanted to shake my hands. And he asked, Are you gonna shake my hands? And that is where I was wrong. With a lot of experience now in football, I know now that things things business is business.
SPEAKER_03:You refuse to shake his hand.
SPEAKER_01:So I refused to shake his hand, and I had a few words. Um, what was wrong, what I shouldn't have never never done. It felt good at the moment, but it was wrong. Who won that match, by the way, between Chelsea and Chelsea lost, and and I had uh I had a horrific, horrific time. But anyway, um in that match. So but anyway, until this day, I feel quite sad about that, how I had to leave Leeds. And and I had a really I I loved it, really, I loved it in Yorkshire and Leeds and and the club, everything was was was was brilliant there.
SPEAKER_03:Has there ever been any opportunities in in your managing and coaching career to go back to go back to Leeds?
SPEAKER_01:No, never. Um never. Um I tried once to become uh applied for uh managerial job, um, but it um but it never um it never really uh materialized. So uh look uh Leeds is a magnificent club. And and coming back to Ridgedale, um I made up years years after we made up, we had a good chat, we had a good laugh. Uh I end up playing for for one of his clubs against Cardiff. Um here and there we still speak. Um so so in that sense, uh we have made up and and we have moved on.
SPEAKER_03:So you went from Atletica, you went to Chelsea. Yeah. Um uh big money signing fee or big big wages?
SPEAKER_01:Uh at the time uh was the highest uh uh transfer ever in in the Premier League with uh Alan Shearer. So a lot of pressure, and especially how I left the country with with with Leeds and then coming back, all those um media guys were straight away on top of me. Um and and I was under pressure. I was under pressure, but um I handled it well. Um we didn't do that great uh as a team. We I think we we finished sixth. Um, but I won the the the the golden boot, scored 23 goals that year, and personally I I I I had a good year.
SPEAKER_03:So are you one of the uh are there many people who've had two golden boots?
SPEAKER_01:I think there are a few. I think there I think there are nine of us. Um two or more. I I think there are nine of us, yes.
SPEAKER_03:And so when you went to Atletico, were you did you always know that you'd be coming back to the English premiership?
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. I signed four years. I signed four years.
SPEAKER_03:So when I say no, let's say, did you always want to come back?
SPEAKER_01:Well, uh yeah, there was always going to be okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna play two three years here, and then I'm going to try to get back to to um to England. Because the the the the Premier League is the the football in Spain is totally different than it is in the Premier League. Premier League is more physical, quicker, you know, um uh more high intensity and that kind of stuff. So that is more in my kind of kind of way, how how how I how I play. But then overall, overall, um you make plans in football, uh they don't always work out. So uh I had again a magnificent year at at Atletico Madrid, but there were so many problems at the club. Uh certain players were not getting paid. Um the the owner went to jail, uh Jesus Gil. The club was in administration, um, and we went down. And the club couldn't afford me when they were if they were gonna go in in their championship. So they had to sell me. Um they bought me from Leeds for 12 million quid, and they sold me to uh to uh to Chelsea for 15 million quid. And at the time that was the highest um transfer um in the Premier League. Yeah, it was uh it was not uh not easy, but a lot of pressure. But you know, end of the day, that's what you want. You want to play at the highest level, you want to play in the in in the best stadiums, and that comes with with with pressure.
SPEAKER_03:And during your time at Chelsea, um Abromrovic bought in as a person. And you you were there, you were there both sides, like pre-Obromrovitch and post-abromovic. I mean, did you get to witness uh you know the start of his big spending?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was a totally it was totally different because um I got I got signed by by Chelsea um with a remit, okay, we want to become champions. Um and at that time there was a lot of money to to to to spend in my first year. Um then uh second and third, the money dried up a bit at Chelsea, and uh they were flirting with administration problems. Um in my third year they wanted to sell me because they needed to raise money. Uh, and Barcelona came in for me, and that deal was went almost true. Um but then the manager at Barcelona got sacked, and then the deal stopped. Um so then all of a sudden, in my third year uh in the summer, uh Ida Gut Johnson calls me and said, Did you hear the club is being taken over, is being bought over by uh a Russian guy. Then uh preseason we have a meeting with Ranieri, and Ranieri tells us everything is going to change. Um, there are lots of players gonna come in. Uh, the new guy wants to play for for winning the league and playing for winning the Champions League and stuff. That and that year was our first year that we were in the Champions League. Then all of a sudden the preseason starts, and out of a sudden uh you have got uh lots of players coming in. Uh players like Joe Cole, um Henan Crespo, Mutu, uh Juan Sebastian Ferrone, you know, so uh a lot of players coming. And and uh all of a sudden now the team is a lot stronger. Um and now all of a sudden you have a lot of competition for for uh for for your place. And um Ranieri knocks on my door again, even though um Ranieri um I knew from Atletico Madrid. He was my manager there. He came to Chelsea, was my manager for three years, uh, had a lot of trouble with um with a few players that that were at uh in his first and second year. Um he knocks on my door in the third year where he has got a lot of money to spend. And now he's saying, Jim, I'm gonna get two strikers in. Um and I think that they are going to be better than you. Um you can have the choice of going or staying. And and he had that same conversation with with Idega Johnson, knowing that we were the were the best couple for him for years, scoring 55 goals in a season and stuff, and doing the business for him, and got him into Champions League, but not really had the decency to give us in his mind a go. So had that conversation with him. I said to him, uh, no, I don't want to go. I will stay, I will fight for my place, I'll show you that I'm still the number one. Uh and Ida Good Johnson said the same. So at the beginning, uh, the first few games, um, Hannon Crespo wasn't ready yet. I played up front with uh Adrian Mutu. Uh Ida Good Johnson was on the bench quite a bit. I had a good start, I had a very good start. Uh Crespo became fit. Then I became out of the team. Uh Crespo didn't really work out, uh, needed uh a lot longer um to settle in. Um Ranieri then became under pressure, uh had needed to start winning games, and then he referred back to me and Ida Gujanson when he needed to win games, and and and we were in the best team um in the best eleven. We played in the semifinal. Uh no, sorry, in the quarterfinal against Arsenal in the Champions League. We got through. Um we were now in the in the in the in the semifinal again. Um we we we were in the semifinal against Monaco. Um we should have won that game. I was on the bench, he put me in uh as a right winger, what does everybody know that is not my my position. Um and we got knocked out. And that was the time really that we could win our first Champions League because with all due respect we should have won against Monaco and then um against Porto uh in the final. You would think that that that we would win as well, but it wasn't meant to be. That that year, that year I end up being Chelsea's top scorer. With the high with with the most goals. And uh it was uh uh uh uh like uh not a bitter, but but it was uh really good feeling to uh you know have done well that s that season under very very difficult uh circumstances, you know, a lot of uh politics happen happening because as a manager when you bring in big players on big wages and and big fees, you have to play them. So uh a Crespo and uh and uh Adrian Mutu had had to play. But then you know to to win that battle um and to play and still then become the top scorer while while you has got less minutes than the others, you know, um is satisfying, uh personally, you know. And then at the end of the season, um Raineri gets sacked, uh Mourinho comes in, and I and I leave um Chelsea without speaking to to Mourinho or whoever.
SPEAKER_03:So when you left Chelsea, I think you you you did Middlesbrough and Charlton and Cardiff and and and I guess that that that saw in the end of your career in uh uh end of your playing career anyway, in 2008. Yeah. I mean, w when you when you finished playing, what made the decision to finish? But then did you know immediately that you were gonna go into coaching and management, or were you gonna take a time out?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I took a time out. Uh I didn't know yet that I was gonna go into uh coaching. I didn't do my badges uh at that time.
SPEAKER_03:Were you financially secure enough to never work again if you wanted to?
SPEAKER_01:Uh I was alright. I was alright. Uh I had made some investments that that uh didn't work out, some did. Um but uh I was I was okay. I was okay. But I was uh I've always been somebody that wants to do something anyway. I had small children then when I stopped in 2008. Uh I took a year out where we traveled a lot as a family, we spent a lot of time together as a family and stuff, and and after that year I started to do my badges. Speaking to uh uh Steve McLaren a lot, who uh I had as as a coach at uh at Middlesbrough. Well, he he advised me, Jim, just go and do your your badges and and and and have a look if you if you like it. Did a lot of coaching at Chelsea where Neil Bart helped me out with uh with the youth, with having uh X amount of players that I could coach uh with and stuff, um where where Chelsea was just absolutely brilliant and giving me time to coach the youngsters. Then um Steve McLaren became um manager at at Nottingham Forest. Um and he said Jim come come and have a look, come and spend some time with us. Um I did, um and I liked it and and and uh seeing how we how he was working and stuff. Uh a few weeks later he asked me to be his first team coach, what came just out of the blue, you know. Um didn't expect that. So I took it. I took it.
SPEAKER_03:Anything that really sticks in your mind uh from either you as a player or from any of your managers um before that you could that you took with you to coaching and management, you know, I guess that in either inspired you one way or the other?
SPEAKER_01:I I I think you take a lot. I think you take a lot because they mold you in the good or bad. Thinking back, you learn more from the bad than from the good. You always have got a vision of how you want things anyway, in business or in football, it's all the same. Yeah. It's it's putting that vision um in in in on paper and and and to deliver it to the individuals. That is where people get an opinion of you. How good do you deliver um what you want and how how well do they understand it? And the delivery of Steve McLaren was very good. You know, um, as a coach, he's he's very one of the best I've seen. So for me to be to be uh around him when he's doing that, yes, very good. But then, but then you're going to think about your other coaches, you know, that that you have had uh Louis van Gaal or uh or a hidding or or a George Graham or or um um Ranieri or Gianluca Fiali or whoever, and you're going to you're thinking, okay, he did that and that and that. Um does that work for you? No, but you have to make things your own. You know, you cannot just take something from somebody else and replicate it because it's not your own. You have to make things your own. Um and and I just found, I just found um to use things and to invent things or to to to to make things to my personality.
SPEAKER_03:What's the hardest thing about being a manager?
SPEAKER_01:The hardest thing about being a manager is um there's there's a few are hard hard things, is is making sure that uh the the the the the the people above you stay with you.
SPEAKER_03:People above you as in the the owners.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah working upwards.
SPEAKER_03:Do they interfere? Well I guess it depends on ownership.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's it's it's not with it's not about interfering. It's not about interfering, it's about just making sure that you that you communicate. You keep communicating, you keep uh um making them understand why, how, and when. Those kind of those people have got a lot of people in their ear. A lot of people, and they're getting pulled left, right, and centre. You need to make sure that you that that that you have got that ear and in the right way. And then there is the media, you know, uh that they stay with you.
SPEAKER_03:I'm gonna read off my off my notes for this because I wanna I want to get this uh context and question and question right. But in 2014, the Port Vail chairman uh said he removed your name from consideration to be their manager uh as he was worried about the racist elements of his club's fan base uh and that they'd abuse you. Um and earlier this year a report by the Black Footballers Partnership revealed that 43% of Premier League footballers are black, but only 4.4% of managers in English football are black. Now I know you've spoken uh about the fact that I mean you think that you haven't experienced racism and and that and that you want to and that you very much believe you've got your jobs on your merits, etc. I mean, can we maybe talk about that, put a bit of context around it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we can. Uh the owner at Portfail is is he's a coward at the time. Uh I don't know his name, but but uh and I and I and I said that if somebody is the right person for the right job, uh doesn't matter how what his what his background is. If he's the right person for the right job, then then give him that job. Just so I understand, did he did he tell you at the time he'd removed you?
SPEAKER_03:Or you found out he found out after the fact he didn't, he didn't, he didn't.
SPEAKER_01:He said that after I went to Burton Albion and I started doing really, really well. So then he needed to come up with an excuse because um I was linked with that job, with Portville, and I didn't get it. So the fans gave him stick. Why did you not give Jimmy uh uh the job? So he came out, it's just an excuse. It's it's it's being a coward.
SPEAKER_03:Do you think the game's moving in the right direction to to address the disparity between you know numbers of black players versus numbers of black managers?
SPEAKER_01:Uh the only the only thing that I can say is is uh is I have applied for a lot of jobs, um majority of jobs. Um I didn't um I didn't get an interview. Why? I don't know. I can't tell you I didn't get an interview. I only want to get a job because they think that I'm the right person for that job. Um and I do know that a lot of black ex players don't want to go and take their badges because of they think that that we don't get a chance, we don't get a fair chance. And if you look at the numbers, if you look at the numbers, then you would say yes, but it's not only about the numbers. What you also need to look at is um how many uh black managers, uh qualified black managers are there or coaches, how many are there? Um and then you have to do the numbers, and then you need to have a look at how many of these black managers are applying for jobs, and how many get interviewed, then you can can can can make can can make um a real assumption.
SPEAKER_03:I so are we saying, I mean, forgive me if I'm misunderstanding, but are we saying that maybe to to pitch 4.4% against 50% is a almost like a sensationalized statistic for the set for the sake of the press. And if we actually backwork this and say, well, hang on a minute, there aren't the there's not even enough people taking the badges in the first place, which then means there's not enough people who are even who are even able to be it, there's then not enough people who are good enough to be it. Yeah, does that make sense?
SPEAKER_01:In a way, yes, but but I want to I want to know those facts first before I can give you the the the the the the right answer. You know, I can only give you uh an answer of my experience, yeah. And my experience is that I don't get interviewed. That's my experience. I was always told, Jimmy, start in league two, yeah, um, and then uh start small and then do well, and then you will get an opportunity um uh higher. Other players who are white, who has got a more or less a name like me, or bigger, they don't have to do that. You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, 100%. So that is my fact, yeah. And and and um uh Patrick Fierra would say the same. Uh Cherry Henry would say the same. Um Saul Campbell will say the same. Those are deaf facts, but the numbers, I can't tell you the exact numbers. And and I I I've seen a podcast with uh podcast with uh with Barnes and the guy from uh Talk Sport.
SPEAKER_03:Oh um Simon Jordan.
SPEAKER_01:Simon Jordan, yes. And in a way I was intrigued, and it was it was about this this subject. I listened to it and I'm feeling that that Simon did not get what it was really about. And he went to say, Um, well, I was the Crystal Palace owner, but I had none no black managers um um applying for the job. Barnes said, Yeah, because we think we would not get it anyway, and he is saying, Yeah, but is that not wrong? Um, I would have given a chance, somebody a chance. Um and then he starts talking about Jermaine Defoe. Jermaine Defoe says, I I don't want to go and do my badges because I'm not gonna get a fair chance anyway. So why do I bet my badges? Sammy Jones said, that is wrong. That's not wrong. If you feel you're not gonna get a chance in in somewhere, you're not going to pursue that, would you?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I get I get what you're saying, and obviously as a as a white guy, it's more difficult for me to have a conversation. But think if I don't put my hat in the ring.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, but think somebody think about something else. If you want to be this, this, this, you want to set up a company, but you're not your company is not going to get any contracts. You know already your country, uh your company's not gonna get any contracts. Would you still set that up?
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I don't know if this is a fair analogy. I'm trying to try to think about it. Not what you've said, what I'm about to say. I mean, I was gonna say so, you know, I have I have a you know, let's say a um a colourful and uh uh you know parts problematic past in business. You know I've had a bankruptcy, had had uh, you know, uh some other insolvency events. And when it comes to things like like the FCA, uh, you know, I am very much persona non-grata. If I go and talk to any main mainstream person in compliance in law, you know, they'll be saying, Don't even, don't even attempt, you know, the FCA will not go anywhere near you. But then there's a lot of businesses that I want to do that need it, and I guess I've I've got two choices. You know, I I can either try and I can say, well, fuck it, I'm not gonna enter this market because because they're never gonna deal with a person like me, or I can say, well, I'm gonna put my best foot forward, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try what I can do. I'll I might you know kick up a PR stink and tell people, you know, let the world know how wrong the FCA are for not giving me a chance 20 years later. But I'm gonna try and I'm gonna do my best because I actually do want to do it. I'm not gonna let them tell me what I can't do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay, but but and that and that is that that is fine. But a lot of other people choose a different route, and I can understand that, rightly or wrongly. I can understand that.
SPEAKER_03:Why did you but you didn't choose that route?
SPEAKER_01:No, I didn't choose that route because I had I had Steve McLaren who said Jim, come, come, um, and have a look what I do. And then he said, Jim, do you want to be my my my first team coach? He said he asked me, and I said yes, and then he helped me with with uh my badges, and I got my badges, and then he was the one, yeah, he was the actually the one who called for me the portfolio the the portvale uh chairman, and he was actually the one who put my name forward and said you should speak to Jimmy Floyd Hasselbank. And and and he never spoke to me, the chairman. And then when the Burton job came up, he was the one, Steve McLaren, that said to to um Ben Robinson, who is the owner of of Burton Albion, you should actually speak to to uh to Jimmy. And they spoke to me, and they liked what they saw, and I got the job, and I was a success at Burton. So so that's a different way. I want to be in it. I feel that there is a niche for me in the coaching or managerial or whatever world in football. So I can understand what uh uh uh Jermaine Defoe is saying, yeah, because it is difficult, but I am not that kind of person. Yeah, I'm a little bit what you are saying, I will still have a go. I'm still having a go. And and I'm getting I'm with with England because first of all, Garrett knows me from from my my my middle middle time and knows the person that I am, and he believes in me, and he gives me the chance to be with him and to help him, black or white. He doesn't look at me like that, and I know that, you know, because I've played with him for two years, and he was always around everybody. He was with the white guys, he was with the black guys, he was joking with us, he was giving us tick, he was being tough on us, yeah, as a captain when he needed to be, regardless of what what background we are. You understand what I'm saying? 100%. So so so so now I'm working with a guy.
SPEAKER_03:Earlier this year, you were appointed to the England men's team as a coach. Um I mean what what's your remit and how did the role come about?
SPEAKER_01:Um very coincidental. I I met uh Garrett um and uh we started talking and he he asked me if I uh if I would would join. Obviously, um Garrett knows me. Uh uh he was my captain at at uh at Middlesbrough. We played two years uh there. My last game with him was uh the final in the UEFA Cup, but we lost 4-0 against Seville. But um, yeah, I I love it. Uh really good group. Um and and and and for me myself, you know, um I've worked in in League Two, League One uh as a manager. Um Um as a coach um as well in in the in the championship as a manager manager in the championship I've worked uh with QPR but uh with the FA it's it's the top of the top. You know, working with the best talent in the country. Um and um yeah seeing them flying over the pitch and and seeing that group together is uh is magnificent, yes.
SPEAKER_03:And I've heard that the St. George's Park uh training facility is something special.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, obviously I I know that really well already because when I was at Burton that that was our training ground. Um and now obviously um with the England England team it's uh it's it's it's the home where where where we always train and the facilities are absolutely magnificent and the pitches are very good and it's a good hotel and and it's uh it's it's um it's very important for the FA to have to have to have a base, obviously, you know, and yeah, it's it's uh it's a great spot.
SPEAKER_03:Let's talk a bit about money. Uh money money and football always go hand in hand. Um I mean how how how financially motivated are you? I mean, I I know I guess when you first started your career, uh, you know, you felt like you've made it when you had£250 a week. Uh obviously, you know, times have changed dramatically since then. Uh, but I mean how how much has money been a motivator for you and what does it mean?
SPEAKER_01:Money is important. Money is is is very important. Um you love the game and you want to play the game, but there's an aspect of of uh of of uh of of money with it, and um you want to be paid uh as much as as you can, uh like any other industry. Um but um what people f forget is is when you have signed your contract, you don't think about the money no more, you don't think about um the the contract meetings you play until your time comes again to to talk about it uh when your contract is almost finished. You play for for playing football. Uh I've I've never really, yeah, you think about the money, but as soon as that is gone, it's forgotten. You know, as soon as as soon as your contract meeting or contract has been signed, you're forgotten. You you think about playing football and running after a ball.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, who advised you about money over the years? I mean, you I know you said you made some good investments, you made some bad investments. I mean, did did you have a financial advisor? I mean, does someone look after the players?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, now nowadays you have got players have got so many more people around them and and people to specialise in in in in in in different areas, you know. Um so so uh nowadays players have are being being looked after so much better. You know, in my time it was was my agent and and maybe one more. Um and and and really that that's it. But nowadays uh the players have got uh they're a lot smarter, the the parents are a lot smarter, and and they're being looked after so much so much so much better.
SPEAKER_03:Other than learning how to kick a ball, what do you think the uh the best financial decision you've ever ever made is?
SPEAKER_01:The best financial decision I've ever made. Oof. Um I think uh buying a few properties.
SPEAKER_03:I mean property is a big part of your life, big part of your investment strategy.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, yes, yes. Um uh it is. I I love it. Um everywhere I went in football, um I I bought a f uh a flat or uh or uh or uh or a house and and done it up. And then when I left I I I I sold it again and made a little bit of profit or whatever, you know. Um but um yeah, outside of football, uh uh I like to uh do a bit of uh a bit of property.
SPEAKER_03:Well listen, I mean it's been great having you here. And I've got to ask you before you go, I guess look, 15 15 plus years of football career, you know, 15 plus years of of business career since then. If you had to look back at you know little Jimmy, the the the the bit being a gangster on the streets.
SPEAKER_00:Gangster is is is is it's it's uh it's it's it's very hard. It's very wasn't I wasn't I wasn't uh a naughty. I was a little shit.
SPEAKER_03:That's what I was talking Jimmy the little shit. If you had to look back and uh and advise yourself about what you know what success would look like to you. Do you think your view of success has changed?
SPEAKER_01:Uh yes and no. Look, uh I've I've I've had um a difficult um youth, but it was uh majority my my my fault. I must say I've turned out okay. Um I see myself as a really good guy. So in that aspect, I've learned a lot and um I know what kind of person I am and and I'm a good guy. Forget about football, forget about football. I I I I am a genuine guy who who can uh work with a lot of people from different backgrounds. Um I'm open, I'm honest. Um yeah, uh I see myself as a good bloke, you know. So um I've turned out okay.
SPEAKER_03:So you so you you you're a you're a G B. I had uh I had uh um James Gaskell, the uh the rugby player on a couple of days ago, and uh we were talking a similar question, and he he gave a similar answer, but he described himself as a GC, which is a good cunt.
SPEAKER_01:I can't be of course I can be a dick if I if I need to be a dick, you know, but uh that's not how I go out of the door or or wake up, you know. Uh I want to live my life in in the right way, I want to be successful, I'm I'm I'm I'm ambitious, but I'm not ambitious that I'm gonna step on people. I've got codes, you know, and and I want to work with people, I want to uh be around people and and uh yeah, and I also want to be um an example for other people, you know. So uh so yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm I'm trying to uh to be positive, you know. Cool.
SPEAKER_03:Well listen, Jimmy, it's been a pleasure, and even as someone who knows nothing about football, I've uh very much enjoyed the last couple of hours and uh hope we get to do it again sometime. Thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you.
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