Chris Robshaw: The Brutal Truth About Life After Rugby & Leadership Mistakes

Former England Rugby Captain Chris Robshaw joins Matt Haycox for a raw and honest conversation about leadership, resilience, and the brutal reality of life after professional sport. From overcoming severe dyslexia as a child to leading his country at Twickenham, Chris shares how the discipline of a high-performance athlete translates into the world of business and entrepreneurship.

We dive deep into his evolution as a leader, moving from an insecure, "stick-oriented" captain to one rooted in empathy and culture building. Chris also opens up about the financial realities of rugby versus football, admits to "gambler" investment mistakes—like a failed film tax scheme—and discusses how he is now building a new career through proactive networking and his charity work.

What We Discuss:

• Overcoming Early Struggles: How battling dyslexia and losing his father at a young age drove Chris to find structure and confidence through sport.
• Leadership Evolution: The transition from a dictator-style captain to a "carrot-oriented" leader who prioritizes understanding people and team culture.
• The Reality of Retirement: Dealing with the loss of identity, the inability to replace the "buzz" of the stadium, and the mental challenge of starting over.
• Financial Honesty: Debunking myths about rugby wealth, the danger of investing for tax breaks, and why Chris doesn't consider himself a "finance expert".
• Networking for Business Growth: How Chris proactively used his platform during his playing days to open doors in the wine and insurance industries.
• Resilience Mindset: Why success isn't about a secret remedy, but the ability to "keep turning up" through the ups and downs.

Timestamps: 
(00:00) Introduction – Dyslexia, childhood tragedy, and finding rugby. 
(11:54) The Debut – Overcoming fear and learning to be in the moment. 
(18:23) Captaincy – Leading England with only one cap and learning from mistakes. 
(27:00) The "Betrayal" – A painful lesson on trust with a coach. 
(34:00) Moving On – Life in San Diego and the decision to retire. 
(45:22) Money Talk – Rugby salaries, bad investments, and financial reality. (52:00) Networking – Building a business network before the spotlight fades. (01:06:00) Future Goals – The Robshaw Foundation and looking ahead.

Resources & Links:

• Chris Robshaw: Instagram: @chrisrobshaw
• Buzzsprout/Podcast: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts: https://strippingoffwithmatthaycox.buzzsprout.com
• Follow Stripping Off on YouTube

Enjoyed this episode? Please subscribe to Stripping Off with Matt Haycox and leave a ★★★★☆ review on Apple Podcasts or Buzzsprout – it really helps others find us!

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Set The Scene
• 3:30 Childhood, Dyslexia, And Finding Rugby
• 8:30 Academy Years And Early Injuries
• 13:00 Debut Lessons And Being Present
• 17:00 Rapid Rise To England Captain
• 22:30 What Captains Really Do
• 27:30 Pressure, Fans, And Public Scrutiny
• 31:30 Initiations And Locker Room Culture
• 35:00 Winding Down A Career And San Diego Reset
• 40:00 Money, Earnings, And Investing Wisely
• 44:00 Building A Second Career And Network
• 48:00 Sport-To-Business Leadership Lessons
• 52:00 Inclusivity, Pride, And Modern Rugby
• 55:00 England’s Form And The State Of The Game
• 1:00:00 Goals, Family, And What Comes Next

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:00

When you lose a game or when you make a mistake in a game, you're literally overplaying that thing. And people say players don't care. Players care more than anyone else can ever imagine. England rugby legend, Chris Rob Shaw. That's very selected, I was very shy. Unfortunately, my father passed at the age of five sports became that kind of happiness. How old was that when you were diagnosed? Eleven-ish, ten eleven. And that been causing a lot of problems up until that time. When you were all in the park and you all had a victory, I used to fear that coming around.

SPEAKER_01: 0:24

What were your feelings? What were your emotions walking onto the pitch on those big games?

SPEAKER_02: 0:28

I was terrible because I wasn't in the moment. Was it a quick mindset shift? When you start training with these players a lot more, you realise they're normal people. Do you like the fame? Do you enjoy the fan interaction? When you're winning, it's a lot more fun than when you're losing. I don't know if fans just keep coming up to us, ripping the tickets up throwing them. How dare you guys be out here drinking?

SPEAKER_01: 0:44

What was it that set you apart from the older ones, the more experienced ones?

SPEAKER_02: 0:48

Anything you want to do well in, you're gonna have ups and downs and it's a roller coaster. You keep turning up.

SPEAKER_01: 0:59

Do you enjoy the the bit outside the hundred minutes? You know, do you do you like the fame? Do you enjoy the fan interaction? Do you like dealing with sponsors?

SPEAKER_02: 1:06

Yeah, I do. Um and and don't get me wrong, when you're winning, it's a a lot more fun than when you're losing, especially those fan interactions, because yeah, look, people can come in on you a little bit um when you're when you're not winning, which which is which is fine, you kind of understand it, and you take take the rough with a smooth a little bit. But of course, yeah, look, that you get to do some pretty fun things on the back of captain in your country or kind of playing for England and stuff like that. And and it and it's great. But I I remember also the the bad things. We went to Wales not a couple of years ago, but 2013. Went down there in in kind of hopes of a grand slam or winning a championship, last game of the campaign. Rupert was closed, an amazing stadium, and and we got beat heavily, got beat heavily, um, unfortunately. And we went back to the hotel bar, nothing correct, we weren't going out, but when you lose a game or when you make a mistake in a game, you're literally over playing that thing. And people say players don't care, players care more than anyone else you can ever imagine. They'll be playing that moment over in the head. I won't sleep probably till four in the morning. I wake up at six, feel horrendous, their body would be aching. And we went down to the hotel bar just pretty much the whole team, end of a campaign, had a couple of beers, nothing, nothing crazy. And I remember fans literally coming up to us, ripping the tickets up and throwing them, like, how dare you guys be out here drinking? And we're like, mate, come on. Like, we get we gave it everything, it didn't work for us, and we're gonna go to our room, sit there and sulk and not and not do anything. Um, so to have a couple of the beer, like two or three beers, it will help you sleep a little bit, we hope. Um, but it's that type of reaction which is is tough when you lose.

SPEAKER_01: 2:44

Guys, welcome to Stripping Off with Matt Haycox, where we strip off our guests metaphorically, don't worry, to get to the bottom of their life, their story, their experiences, and what we can learn from it. And today we've got none other than the England rugby legend, Chris Robshaw. He's a captain, he's a champion, and now he's a budding business mastermind. So uh plenty we can talk about. And uh thanks a lot for being here, Chris.

SPEAKER_02: 3:09

Pleasure. Thank you very much for having me on board. And um, yeah, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01: 3:12

I'm looking at my banana bread feeling very, very uh selfish and rude. But Chris actually did have a banana bread, but he wolfed it down so quick so quickly, along with half of my chicken breakfast, that uh I've got it, I've got it alone. Uh listen, there's so so much we can talk about, so many angles we can go down, but I guess let's let's set the scene. Uh let's let's let's talk about your childhood and your your kind of beginnings that that lead on lead onto the rugby journey.

SPEAKER_02: 3:34

Yeah, um, yeah, let's let's go right back really. Look, as a as a kid, I was I was actually very dyslexic. I was very dyslexic, I was very shy. Um, unfortunately, my father passed at the age of five when I was five. Um and for me, sport became that kind of happiness, it's became that escape from the classroom, it's became a place where I gained confidence and structure and all that kind of stuff. And as I got a little bit older, I got a little bit bigger. Um, and of course, a bit of size in rugby is always good, and I probably wasn't skillful enough to play a tennis or football or something like that. So I went down more the rugby route. I loved it, my friends played. Um, managed to get picked up by Harlequins when I was 17-ish. Uh, used to go on my holidays.

SPEAKER_01: 4:15

Is that like an apprentice type thing?

SPEAKER_02: 4:16

But yeah, like the academy system. So yeah, you'd go on your holidays. I remember we used to all stay in the army barracks, so there'd be kind of 15 of us in this dorm room, all sleeping there, then we'd go to training. We had our I remember when you got a first bit of like Harlequin's kit, and it was just amazing. You see it on the TV, you see the players wearing it, and then you have your initials on it, and it was like, wow, this is this is what it's about.

SPEAKER_01: 4:38

Had that been a team that you were you were a supporter of as a kid? Was it was that like you know your team?

SPEAKER_02: 4:43

Yeah, it was. So I'm I'm kind of Surrey Base kind of grew up that way. Uh so Harlequins is that is that team, and I actually had a Quinn's top as a kid. I don't think it was one where I knew exactly what Harlequins was, but I think my mum thought, you know what, it's it's a nice multicoloured top, like four quarters, and you can go in the garden, you can rip it, you can make it messy and dirty, and it just it's durable. So I used to just put it on the whole time, every time I was out, and then yeah, I used to try and watch the Five Nations when it was out back in the day on the TV because rugby also wasn't on TV much then. This would be kind of 30 odd years ago. Whereas now with TNT, ITV, BT and ITV as well, um it's on all the time and it's brilliant to promote the game and stuff, and there's different leagues we get to see, but back then it was kind of the big finals, the big five nations games. Um so it wasn't as visible. So going into it, I didn't really know what to do or what to expect. So I like I said, I got picked up by 17, left school, 18, went into the academy system. Uh, my first year, I remember I got my contract was£4,000 a year, and I thought I'd made it, it's£333 a month, and it was brilliant. I was like, you know what, I'm I'm earning playing rugby, and it was absolutely incredible. And then unfortunately, I got injured a lot, got injured a lot in my first couple of years. First year broke my foot twice, second year broke my leg, the year after I did my knee ligaments, and I was thinking, you know what, is is this game for me? Um, is your body up to it? Because all of a sudden you were a big kid at school, you're now a young, a young man, 18, 19, going up against men who are 15 years older, you develop stronger. Um, and I remember speaking to my mum and saying, you know what, I I don't know if my body's up to it this. And she gave me some typical motherly advice and said, Have you tried drinking more milk? Just to kind of dense up the bones. And um, and actually after that, not so much just the milk, but we uh when I got to 21, I kind of um played ever since really.

SPEAKER_01: 6:37

Well, let's just take a little pause there. I just want to rewind to uh obviously a couple of key uh key events in your childhood. Um obviously you you mentioned the passing of your father. I mean, did you have uh did you have brothers, sisters? Um was that a surprise? He he he died suddenly, did he? Yeah, he did, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_02: 6:53

Um so I was my little brother was three, I was five, my older brother was seven. Um unfortunately had a heart attack. Um and and as you can imagine, it's it's always a surprise of something like that. And it was an extremely tough, tough situation for my mum to deal with, and the whole family kind of rallied around my aunts and uncles and stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 7:13

Can can you remember it?

SPEAKER_02: 7:15

Yes, I I remember I was at like a kid's birthday party, and just my dad never turned up. Um and it was yeah, it was it was extremely tough. Um, and of course, a lot of that kind of timing for me was a bit of a blur. Um, but I think also at that kind of age, you don't really understand stuff. So I was just I was very angry, I was very pent up, I was frustrated with a lot of things. Um, and I think also because I wasn't excelling in stuff like the classroom, which you were kind of forced to do and stuff, um, yeah, it sometimes got a little bit harder for me.

SPEAKER_01: 7:47

Do you think it's something that as a five-year-old you truly understand at that time? I mean, I mean, I'm obviously I guess you know, you know what death is, but it's presumably different to being 15 or 25 or something. Is it still old old enough to to fully, I guess, fully understand the the upset, the heartbreak, or is it just a bit like dad's not around anymore?

SPEAKER_02: 8:06

Yeah, I think it is more that like like you said, your dad's dad's not there anymore. Unfortunately, a lot of people in your family are sad, you probably don't fully understand why they're that kind of sadness. Um, and now I've I've got a son myself, and you kind of put the finger on the other foot and you think, you know what, you want to try to be around so much because unfortunately my father, like I said, passed. Um, so you want to try be as hands-on as possible and do all that kind of stuff and and have those moments because everyone, and and like we were talking about before, everyone says it goes so quick. Um, so yeah, there's definitely a little bit of that which we're trying to make up for.

SPEAKER_01: 8:40

Let's just talk a little bit about the dysdyslexia. How old was that when you were diagnosed? So I was probably 11-ish, 10-11. And had that been causing you a lot of problems up until that time, because I guess I always say things like, you know, dyslexia and ADD, that you know, that they were they were they were proper illnesses 30 years ago, you know. Now everyone gets diagnosed with it just because just because they've had some shit grades, don't they? But back then, I guess it was it was something that was um less diagnosed and more serious.

SPEAKER_02: 9:03

Yeah, it was, and it was little things like um reading, reading, spelling. Even now, when I'm trying to say kind of what to am I writing, or what there is it, i.e. or all that kind of stuff, and you're you're still kind of thinking about it. And I remember kind of now, even if I was presenting to the players in like a meeting as as kind of captain or something like that, I would always get one of the young guys to come up and do the writing on the board for me and just be like, oh, that's that's there kind of thing. Um but one of the biggest things I used to struggle with is when you're all in a class and you all had a book to read, so you'd all have a book to read, um, and you'd all kind of stand up and read your line, and then you'd sit down, the next person would read your line or your chapter or something like that. And for me, it was um, I used to fear that coming round to me. And then I remember I went to a um a Carol concert a couple of years ago, and I was reading in between Charles Dance, Olivia Coleman, Dawn French, these kind of world-class actors and actresses. Think, oh my god, I'm so out of my debt. But I loved it. And if I could say to myself, as a kid there, look where you're gonna be in 30 odd years' time, because of all the little steps that that teachers have put into you and your parents and all that kind of stuff have made me stay in breaks times and have made me do extra work after class. Because as a kid, you don't see the benefit, you don't see the benefit, you're like, oh, I I hate that teacher, they're making me work again and all that kind of stuff. But those little things really added up for me. So if anyone with a like dyslexia always asks me, I'm saying, like just stick with it, stick with it, keep on doing those little increments because come 10, 15, 20 years' time, your development will be so much greater than you ever thought.

SPEAKER_01: 10:42

And is is it really treatable and fixable? Or is it like I don't know if if you're colour blind, you're colourblind. I know you can, like you say, train anything and get and get better, but do you ever cure it?

SPEAKER_02: 10:54

Good question. I'm not sure actually. I think also you learn to to deal with things and you learn to adapt with things. And I think with stuff like dyslexia, I think it's really helped me think differently. Because certain ways of thinking don't apply to and I always say look when you're when you're in a group environment, when you're in a team environment, team managing, whatever you're gonna be, captain C, a lot of it is uh player management and it's understanding people and it's understanding how to get a message across to you. So I might get a message across to you in a certain way, but a next person won't understand the message how I've related it to you, so I have to think of someone completely different to speak to them. And I think with stuff like dyslexia and and other things, you get a little bit more creative with your approaches because you have to think a little bit more outside the box. And for me, I'm much more a hands-on learner, um, so we would do kind of team tactics or stuff, and it'd all be written on like the TV screen or the whiteboard, and half of us have no idea what's been happened because half of us are physical learners, we want to be outside walking through it and stuff like that. And I think now in uh schooling systems and they're helping children with stuff like that, they're thinking, you know what, we went to look at a school the other day. They have tables on the floor because some kids prefer to learn sat on the floor and stuff like that, which I I mean, same as you as a kid, your desk was all forward-facing, it was all that, um, but also they know that the jobs now in the future are going to be like that. They're gonna be working from home, they might be working from a kitchen sofa, or do you know what I mean? So they have to be able to kind of get their message across slightly differently, and so they can understand.

SPEAKER_01: 12:31

Let's go back to your to your rugby career then. So um you said you've been playing since 21, 22, ever since. Taught me through that kind of debut moment. Um, I guess, you know, you you've you've had your you've had your injuries, you've had your canaby, you've you've been on an off. Who was your first main team and and what or first professional team when you went out on onto a first team game?

SPEAKER_02: 12:50

Yeah, so with Harlequins, I like I said, we um we unfortunately as a as a team got relegated um in 20 oh sorry, 2007-ish. Um six, seven, yeah. Uh unfortunately, with that, a lot of uh bigger names left. Um and we probably didn't recruit as many because obviously it's not as attractive to go to a championship side.

SPEAKER_01: 13:13

And is that is that your first year? That's when you were referring to the city.

SPEAKER_02: 13:16

Well, no, that was my second year, but the year we the year we got relegated, uh we were kind of academy, so we didn't really play. So then because of that, it gave us an opportunity, it gave a lot of the younger players more of an opportunity. Whereas if we'd stayed in the premiership, we wouldn't have had that because we would have brought in more players or more players would have been around, bigger budgets, all that kind of stuff. So we had that opportunity to play. Then so I think my debut was a team called Pertent Bees in Birmingham, which aren't around anymore. And I remember with uh with our coach Steam Richards, an amazing England number eight, legend of the game, coach, captain, one, I think, with Leicester. But he would often play me for the lesser games and then play the more experienced players for the bigger games. And every time he would drop me, he would say, Look, we're going for experience. And every week I'd be like, Well, how do I get experience then if I don't play? And we would literally just have this kind of chicken and egg situation. Um, but he was he was great to me, he was a great supporter, he was one of those players or one of those coaches or DORs who would back you to the hills publicly, and if anything happened, he'd support you. But if you did something wrong behind closed doors, he would let you know. And he was a he was a big tough man, and you didn't really want to cross him a man, a few words. Um, but no, he gave him my first opportunity, and uh a lot of the young guys who came through the Harlequin system, he was a big partner.

SPEAKER_01: 14:36

What were your feelings? What were your emotions? You know, how how how did it feel, you know, walking onto the pitch on the on those big games, you know, have having been a kid and always wanted to get there? Was there fear? Was there excitement?

SPEAKER_02: 14:47

You know what? In my first one of my first games, so I my first one was probably a preseason game, actually, but which they don't count as like a competitive game. And my first one there was in this Harlequin side at the time with a guy called Andrew Mertens, who was a New Zealand all black legend of the game. And if anyone's ever played Joan Laman Rugby, he's like the main person and stuff like the one of them. Um a previous South African captain called Andre Boss, who also mentored me, which is amazing. World Cup winner Will Greenwood, um, amongst many others. And I remember in that first half of that game, I was looking around thinking, oh my god, I'm playing with X, Y, and Z. And I've just caught the ball for that. And I was terrible. I was terrible because I wasn't in the moment. I was so worried about everyone else and all that kind of stuff. And after that moment, I and I I actually didn't play for a while after that because I didn't play well. I was so worried about this, this person, that person. And after that, I was like, I'm never gonna do that again. I'm gonna be in the moment, I'm gonna face uh the team in the pits, I'm gonna focus on players, and I'm gonna be good enough to be in the room and not worry about saying, Oh, I'm I'm I'm with this person, that person, because that you don't play well, so you've got to be in the moment and got to enjoy it and don't get too kind of overcome by the atmosphere.

SPEAKER_01: 15:58

And how do you get over that? Is it is it was it a quick mindset shift, or was it just practice, you know, doing more and more of it?

SPEAKER_02: 16:05

Yeah, I think doing more and more of it. Um I think when you start training with these players a lot more, you realise and they're normal people, they're they're like good fanothlopits, they can be intense, they work you hard, and all this kind of stuff. Um But I think you get drawn into a name sometimes, don't you? And you're like, Oh, I've got to act differently around that person because that's and then people often say they meet they meet someone, they're like, Oh, they were they were so nice and normal. And it's like, what do you expect? Uh and and that's kind of for me what what it kind of what it what it took. So yeah, unfortunately I didn't play for probably about a month after that, and I got an opportunity and I just said to myself, look, you're you're in this now. Just go and play, do what you do well. Um, and that was great.

SPEAKER_01: 16:45

Going back to the club you're playing for and and your career, what when when do things move on? What what what what are some key moments? You know, when when do you start to really find your feet?

SPEAKER_02: 16:54

Yeah, so since then I looked, then I I captained Harlequins at 23. Um, I captained England at 25.

SPEAKER_01: 17:01

What was so uh you I think your first England game was 2012?

SPEAKER_02: 17:04

Yeah, so it was no sorry, my first my debut was 2009. So when the Lions went away. So the Lions went away. Um, and with that, a lot of the England players got caught up to that. So the Lions is when um Ireland, England, Scotland, and Wales kind of combined to go and play a Southern Hemisphere side. So a lot of the England players got caught up to that, which meant a lot of players who hadn't played for England generally get an opportunity around there, or they they go play someone else. So we tore Argentina and I had that opportunity to go with England. I had made my debut, um, and unfortunately, but we lost the game. But then the Lions guys came back, and unfortunately, I didn't play. I was in that training squads, but I didn't quite play or make it. So then my next opportunity with England to play, I was captain in England on my second appearance, which was um and in a tournament I'd never ever played in, which was so it's pretty intimidating, but it's great to be part of.

SPEAKER_01: 17:59

I mean, is that rare in in rugby and sport in general that on your second game in something you will be the captain?

SPEAKER_02: 18:05

Yeah, pretty rare. Pretty rare. And I think you often, because you gain experience, the more you do so, and the older you get, the more experience you generally get. Uh, but we were a new group generally, um, and uh coach at the time, and we wanted to put a new mark in it, and a lot of us had come into it for the first time. The the the greats of English rugby, what they are now, the Owen Fowrells, uh Donny Cares, all this kind of stuff, uh the Marlers, they hadn't had much experience. A lot of them had zero caps. Myself, like I said, only had one. So we were starting from scratch, and it was about putting a new identity on this side.

SPEAKER_01: 18:38

How does it feel in that first England game? I mean, obviously, you've been playing rugby for many years at this point, you've already been a successful captain of your of your of your home team. Do nerves come back? You know, does the excitement come back? I mean, I I assume it's every sportsman's dream to play for the country.

SPEAKER_02: 18:52

Yeah, it is, and um definitely nerves, definitely nerves. And I remember that first kind of huddle, and look, I'd spoken in huddles loads, loads for England, but it was different that first one as captain. And I remember speaking in that first, and I probably said a load of rubbish, and then Andy Fowell, who was our defence coach, who's now Ireland head coach, came up to me after, and he captained Great Britain at a young age, like 20 or something, like really, really successful, and he says, Look, now just go out there and and be yourself, don't worry about all that kind of stuff. The hard bit's done, um, and just kind of do what do you did to put you in this position. Um, so that that was really useful. But then also, our first game was where in Murrayfield in Scotland, and we were kind of introducing down to Princess Anne and all the players, and you're trying to remember their proper names, not their nicknames and stuff because you don't call each other that. So you're trying to remember what is this guy's first name? So that was good, but also what makes you probably more nervous and kind of because it you train on like a Friday morning, you have a captain's run, you do final preparation, all that kind of stuff. Then that afternoon, you'll go back to the hotel, you might have a meeting, but it's mainly just recovery, have some physio massage, eat well, and try and make Relax until the game, so that kind of window can be quite long, but everyone means so well, so you get so many like messages of good luck and all that, and then you're like, Oh, I just want to like everyone, everyone's being so nice, but it makes you feel more nervous because you see how important the game is and how kind of much it means to people. But then once you get to that game, I always say to people, that's the best moment when you get to the stadium. That that's it, because for those a hundred minutes, you get to do what you always loved, and that's the best players in your country against the best players in their country in the amazing stadiums, fans everywhere, cheering, supporting because as soon as you've finished, there'll be a camera in someone's face, there'll be recovery, they'll be on to the next game, they'll be seeing the sponsors. Um, but those hundred minutes is what it's all about, and that's why it's so special.

SPEAKER_01: 20:48

When you were the young captain, you said you were 23 and you had you know guys materially older than you. What what was it that set you apart from the older ones, the more experienced ones that made you know made coach or whoever whoever dishes it out think that you know you you should have been the captain of that team?

SPEAKER_02: 21:04

Yeah, it's uh it's an interesting question, really. Um I think the biggest thing for for leaders and and things is you've got to be authentic to yourself, gotta be authentic. Of course, you've got to learn from others and try and evolve and and move forward. But the biggest thing that I think is what a leader can do or what someone who wants to go far, because there's no smooth sailing. Anything you want to do well in, you're gonna have ups and downs, and it's a roller coaster. The biggest thing I think I I did and and what I see people do is you keep turning up, keep turning up, it's it's no secret remedy, there's no thing but good or bad days. Yes, you can have a sulk, you can have a mope, you lick your wounds, but you still get back out there, and and that's what's really important, and that's what I felt I did. I would always always turn up. I'd I'd want to improve, I'd want to get better. Um and I I was supported by other people, but for me that was that was it.

SPEAKER_01: 21:54

How did you learn leadership? How did you learn Captain Sim? Particularly at at 23, okay, fine, you've you've worked under some other captains, but I mean you're still very, very young, very inexperienced. I mean, did you have support? Did you have mentors? You know, did you go home and read books on leadership?

SPEAKER_02: 22:11

Yeah, all of the above, really. I love reading books, I love kind of autobiographies, trying to pick people's brains, but I want to take it a step further. So I'd like to go and speak to for me, I learned massively from people who'd been in the arena and done it, and kind of really witnessed it and kind of seen and failed. You don't, like I said, everyone everyone has failed somewhere, and it's trying to think, and more often than not, they come back all in a similar way. And I think for for me, it was going to see previous international captains I saw DeLalio, Tony Adams, footballer, uh Strauss, Alistair Kirk, Kevin Sinfield, obviously legend, all these type of guys and picking their brains. And I remember I came back once and thought, you know what, I'm gonna be this person, he's told me somewhere I'm gonna try that. And I went into the rugby, the team room to present, and the boys literally laughed me out of the room. And a rugby environment can be pretty unforgiving, but then again, I tried something else, and it really resonated with the players. So I think you you have to learn and you have to evolve, but you have to do it in your style because you still have to be people still have to buy into you. Um, so be authentic, I think is the other thing.

SPEAKER_01: 23:14

Let me hit you with a mad stat. You are probably not subscribed. Seriously, 58% of the people who listen to this podcast every single week do not hit that subscribe button. That is more than half of you. So let's fix this right now. The goal here is super simple. We grow the podcast, we bring in bigger guests, and we give you even more no bullshit, actionable insights to level up your business and to level up your life. And with business, you set smart goals, specific, measurable, achievable, relevant, and time-bound. Well, here's one for you. Let's get 58% and to welcome about 50% in the next three months. So please do me a quick favour. If this podcast has ever given you one good idea, one piece of advice that's helped you or helped your business, then hit that subscribe button. It takes a second, it costs nothing, and it means I can keep bringing you even bigger and better guests, giving you even bigger and better insights. Come on, do it now. I'll wait. Done. Perfect. Great choice. Let's grow this together. Just talk to me a bit about captaincy in general, because uh I guess as a as a non-sporty type person, I never really understand the kind of full role of a captain, or you know, like what does a captain do versus versus the manager? And is it, I mean, is there actually like say formal job and responsibilities, or is it is it just the figure head of the team?

SPEAKER_02: 24:33

Yeah, there is a little bit. So look, I've I was like I said, I captained Tylerquins at 23 for about four years. I also captained them about 32 for a couple of years as well before I left. And I think I also captained them in two very different ways. Because when I was 23, I must admit, I was probably an insecure captain. I was captaining guys 10, 15 years older than me. I thought, you know what, I've got to put my mark on things, everything is gonna be stick oriented, it's got to be my idea, all that kind of stuff. Um, every punishment was fitness, you were late, it was fitness, you gave penalties away, it was fitness.

SPEAKER_01: 25:04

Oh, and you you're dishing out the punishments, right?

SPEAKER_02: 25:07

Yeah, and because again, you put your mark on it. So, but of course, you need to have a good group of leadership groups around you. And I think with captaincy as well, it can be a lonely place. So you do need to have that support. Um, but then when I was 32 captaining them and captaining guys, I don't know who were 18, it was very much a carrot-oriented and trying to get the best out of people and speak to people a little bit more and openly and say what's wrong. And because also people were different, people evolved, rugby and moved forward. It wasn't the old kind of cliches of toughen up, stop being soft, all those kind of those crap things people say. Um it was more about how you get more out of the individual. But yeah, definitely in a captaincy role and a leadership role, it's uh it's got to be a 24-7 thing. I think if you're captain, you can't pick and choose your days, and that's that's often the hard thing, and that's why you need good people to support you. I think also as a captain of a of a team, you need to be able to be in a player's camp, but you also need to be in a coach's camp, and there's times when you have to like support each other.

SPEAKER_01: 26:06

So and as captain, do you do you work with the coach, with the manager and stuff then, as in you'll effectively come away from the rest of the team and take your playing hat off and put your captain hat on and say, right coach, right manager, you know, this is this is what we all need to be doing.

SPEAKER_02: 26:23

Yeah, definitely. Um I would have sit-downs, whether with with England or Quinn's or whatever, with coaches at Fern away, and you would know potentially who was going to be dropped and who wasn't. I remember there's a stage where my roommate was being dropped, but I couldn't tell him. And it's that kind of thing, and it's that kind of privacy you're told with. But other times you get the player's point of view and they feel exhausted, they've been worked too hard, they don't like this drill, or they think the mindset of the the approach coming down is wrong. Um, and you have to go and speak to the coaches, and you have to be very honest. And I remember when I was a young captain, and probably when I first learned about the kind of trust you get from a coach and the kind of information you're privacy to. So we had played, I can't remember, we had we had a short week, so that basically means we had played Sunday, then we're playing Saturday, so we didn't have quite a full week to recover. And then we were told, you know what, we're we're on a Monday, we're gonna be kind of recovery-based walkthroughs, but we can't afford them to miss a day. And our coach at the time had said, you know what, he said to me privately, look, we we're gonna be off, but I just don't want the players going and not out. So I'm gonna send a message out at half six in the morning. No one should have left their house yet. So when they wake up, they'll see the message and they can go back to sleep or whatever. So me being a us having a bit of a young side and me being a bit of a naive captain, I um we went out for a couple of beers, and the guys, we were all kind of like, oh, let's we should probably go home now. And I I let slip, you know what, we're gonna be off tomorrow, don't worry, we'll we'll get a message tomorrow. So we had a bit of a big night, um, as as you do. We we went went all went home, had our sleeps. Unfortunately, that message message never came. A message never came, and and we were on the hill doing hill sprints at nine o'clock in the morning, and a lot of us being sick. And I remember the coach at the time just looked at me and just said, never betray me again.

SPEAKER_01: 28:10

And that what and why did it happen? What did he just change his mind or did he know that he had gone out in the best?

SPEAKER_02: 28:15

He had found out, yeah, he had found out, and now that for me was a big learning curve. Um, and then since that moment, I've never, if you're told stuff in certain camps, you you have to do it. And but also the other side is, and this is when it could be a lonely place, leadership and captaincy, and like you're obviously a successful businessman. When you have to sit down with your mates and say, you know what, that wasn't good enough, you've let us down. Like, why are you doing that kind of thing? Uh obviously with a bit more probably intent, and that and that can be really hard because especially when I was young trying to do that, you'd have to build yourself up because you know they would go off to the other mates or the other boys and probably slag you off. And um, but that became part of the role when you almost had to separate yourself from the squad a bit uh in terms of that because you have to sometimes have those tough conversations and little things like I remember the Captain England. I didn't really do much of the team room, and then when I wasn't captain, I remember going to play FIFA with with some of the boys for the first time and thinking this is amazing. I should have been doing this more often, but sometimes you feel you have to remove yourself a bit.

SPEAKER_01: 29:17

Do you get a pay rise as a captain or is it just an honour?

SPEAKER_02: 29:20

Uh it's just an honour. Um I don't know, you might you might have been one of the higher earners of the team, but yeah, with England or anything like that, you don't do people stay as a captain?

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

Is it kind of like a it's a one-year gig and it rotates? Or if you're if you're a good captain, do you stay as captain until you're no longer with that team?

SPEAKER_02: 29:39

Yeah, it's it's kind of up to you. So I was what was really hard, I captained England at and Quinn's for a lot of the same period. Um so you would leave, so say you would have a campaign with England, you would go home on a Sunday, you play Saturday, go home, debrief on a Sunday, go home, put your England bag away, pack your Quinn's bag, Monday morning. You go to Quinn's. And then you're because you've been away a lot and you're captain, the coach wants you to get up at the front and kind of take over now. Whereas that emotionally and mentally was so tough. I remember I again after that whales game, I was in the gym. Monday morning after be being beaten on a Saturday badly, a bit of abuse and stuff have come away, doing weights, and I remember looking to Wonder Boys and they go, I don't know what I'm doing. I just went home. I went, I said to the I said to the coach, look, I've just got to go. I'm just not in the right headspace, I'm not in the right thing. And it was probably a little bit before people started taking mental health really seriously. And I I definitely suffered on the on the back of that stuff. Um, and I just needed a couple of days just to to get myself kind of through it. Um but we captaincy, yeah, I did it for four years with Queens, four years with England, and then another two come to the end.

SPEAKER_01: 30:49

How do the other players in the team you know treat someone when when they have dropped a ball or or I don't you know failed to pass or you know what whatever the appropriate rugby terms are, you know? I mean, okay, mishaps happen here and there, but if someone has a really shit game, you know, they're like they say you're distracted, you've got issues at home, you're you've got nerves, whatever it is, you know, you're dropping balls left, right, and centre. Do you get a good a good kicking from the team when you're getting the change in room?

SPEAKER_02: 31:14

No, I I think it all depends on what it is. I think that no one no one wants to drop a ball. Like you don't try to do something like that, do you? You don't be like, okay, for it to me, I'll drop it, or you don't try and miss a tackle. But of course, if you're doing that a lot, you've got to work in it, and then things have to be done. However, there was a great example in a game who just happened Saracens be Harlequins. Unfortunately, Saracens won really, really convincingly. But Harlequins' pack, they're scrum-wise, is so much more dominant than the Saracens pack. So, with that in the week, Saracens would have spoken about you know what, we don't want to get into scrums, so we don't want to force passes and all that kind of stuff. Saracens came out of the block really aggressively, they started well, but one their players forced an offload and the ball got dropped. So all week they would have said, look, we don't want to force anything because we don't want to get scrums. So all of a sudden, within the first five minutes, so that's that's not a mistake, that's almost like a forced mistake, a forced error. Um, and then you'd go in on the player and say, you know what, that's that's a stupid thing to do because we've spoken all week, we're clear-minded at the moment, and now we've given them an opportunity to get back in the game. So I think if there's you're going against tactics, you're going against all that kind of stuff, you go off script, then yeah, you can go in on players. However, if you are you drop a ball because you I don't know, you made a mistake, then that's a little bit different.

SPEAKER_01: 32:33

Do you enjoy the the bit outside the hundred minutes? You know, do you do you like the fame? Do you enjoy the fan interaction? Do you like dealing with sponsors?

SPEAKER_02: 32:41

Yeah, I do. Um, and and don't get me wrong, when you're winning, it's a a lot more fun than when you're losing, especially those fan interactions, because yeah, look, people can come in on you a little bit um when you're when you're not winning, which which is which is fine, you kind of understand it, and you take take the rough with a smooth a little bit. But of course, yeah, look that you got to do some pretty fun things on the back of captain in your country or kind of playing for England and stuff like that. And and it and it's great. But I I remember also the the bad things. We went to Wales not a couple of years ago, but 2013. Went down there in in kind of hopes of a grand slam or winning a championship, last game of the campaign. Rupert was closed, an amazing stadium, and and we got beat heavily, got beat heavily, um, unfortunately. And we went back to the hotel bar, nothing correct, we weren't going out, but when you lose a game or when you make a mistake in a game, you're literally over playing that thing. And people say players don't care, players care more than anyone else you can ever imagine. They'll be playing that moment over in ahead. I won't sleep probably till four in the morning. I wake up at six, feel horrendous, their body would be aching. And we went down to the hotel bar just pretty much the whole team, end of a campaign, had a couple of beers, nothing, nothing crazy. And I remember fans literally coming up to us, ripping the tickets up and throwing them, like, how dare you guys be out here drinking? And we're like, mate, come on, like we get we gave it everything, it didn't work for us, and we're gonna go to our room, sit there, and sulk and not and not do anything. Um, so to have a couple of the beer, like two or three beers, it will help you sleep a little bit, we hope. Um, but it's that type of reaction which is is tough when you lose.

SPEAKER_01: 34:16

Well, we're gonna move on in a second to talk about uh the second chapter of your life, I guess you know, life after rugby. Uh, but we can't finish talking about rugby without you telling me one or two initiation stories. Um I forget what the storage, but when we had Taskell on the podcast, I was telling you just before we started. He told me some ridiculous story. I I I can't even remember it to say, but I'm sure I'm sure people ended up naked in front of the team owner's wife or something like that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: 34:43

Rings and the bells are gonna have to dig that one out and send it to you. Have you got any uh got any any stories for?

SPEAKER_02: 34:48

Yeah, not in here. Well, with England, actually, you have to you have to sing a song. So you have to sing a song amongst some other things, which alcohol related and all that kind of stuff. And we played, my debut was over in Argentina, and when you play in Argentina, France, Italy, the banquets they have after the game are amazing, the food, the spreads, all that kind of stuff. Uh and they make a real feast of it where it's as much of the the day as the game is. And I had had a lot of drinks because it was my first game, and you have a lot of drinks with players, and then I've just heard my name saying, Can Chris Hobshaw come up and basically get his first cap? So you go up and the president presents your cap, he says a couple of words, love, great game, all that kind of stuff. Well done. And as I was sneaking off again, James Haskell. So James Haskell had spoken to the president and said um on their debut they have to sing on stage. They don't know. We normally sing in the bus on the way back, so it's just a squad. And then we're singing, and so I go on stage, and there's probably 500 people in this room, of which 97% probably only speak Spanish. Uh so I'm uh I'm pretty intoxicated at the time. And the president says, Oh here, you you owe us a song. And like I said, I'm pretty drunk at the time, and I think, you know what? Yeah, I do owe you a song. Um, and I'm a terrible singer, I'm I'm tone deaf. My wife is definitely the singer of the family. And I um I go, okay, so I'm gonna sing Build Me Up Buttercup, and I sing Build Me Up Buttercup, and it is it's so bad. And you can see, like, obviously, the England boys all laughing, all the the Argentinians in the room have no idea what's happening because they're just Spanish speaking. Um, and I sing, and then I kind of yeah, I think I've nailed that. And as I leave, I just thank you for your time. I've been brilliant, and drop the mic and walk off. And it was uh yeah, it was a serious crash and burn moment.

SPEAKER_00: 36:35

All the rugby boys are cheering you, presumably while everyone else is looking at what the fuck.

SPEAKER_01: 36:39

Yeah, what's just happened? And now you've said that. I remember that Hask said he sung a song. I don't know what it was, but it was fucker gently or fuck it. So you know the one I mean by Tenacious Day, and then he he told us he had to sing that somewhere, and then he actually actually gave us a little rendition on the podcast. Yeah, I'm not a singer.

SPEAKER_02: 36:56

I'll say that I've had too many waters, I think.

SPEAKER_01: 36:58

Somewhere we won't subject you to that. Let's just talk a bit further through your career, then I guess you know past 2015 and uh you in in in some of your your later teams and and what on what wound things down for you to end up uh end up uh quitting eventually.

SPEAKER_02: 37:11

Yeah, so when I was 34, um I was at Quinn's, I was in one of my last year, my last year, my contract, and I was the oldest background about eight years, and I was starting to be caught. I knew I probably wasn't a player I um once was, and I like I said, I'd I'd started for the club since I was 21 or something like that, and I didn't want to just in a selfish way kind of slip into the back, and uh maybe it was a bit of an ego thing, maybe it was a pride thing. Um but I knew I wasn't quite ready to call it a day, so I thought, you know what, I didn't want to go to France or Japan where it's different language. French is an extremely physical league, they're extremely big. My body was not as strong as it once was, as well. Um, so I thought, you know what, let's go and have a life experience. So went over to San Diego. I played over there for 18 months, which I mean, I don't know if you've been to San Diego, but it's beautiful. I would I would move back. Yeah, I would move back in a heartbeat. I loved it. And for me, the ocean's a massive mental escape. Just being in the water is it there's something really calming for me about it. Um so we'd do training instead of going in a wheelie being ice bath, we're going down the beach and sitting in the sitting in the water for 20 minutes or something like that. And um, yeah, played over there, and it was a very different experience. Mentally, it allowed me to relax a bit and slowly unwind and almost separate myself from the rugby aspect. Because I remember I when I used to speak to people, I saw Tony Adams, the old Arsenal in England footballer, legend of the game. Of course, he had his battles as well. And I he was like, What are you gonna do next? And I said, I do a bit of this, that, and that, but I don't do anything properly. And he said, Look, that that's the issue. You're people always try when they finish careers, sport, whatever, try comparing it to running out in front of 80,000 people, in front of 10,000, 15,000 people that sleep. You can't. Nothing you ever do is gonna give you that buzz. So unfortunately, you have to say, you know what, that chapter of my life was amazing, but it's over. Not to say that whatever you do next, you can't get fulfillment, satisfaction, enjoyment, all those kind of things, but it is different. So when people say, Oh, how do you replace it? You you can't, and that that is one of the actual the toughest things when people go, Oh, how do you replace it? You can't, and that's actually when I miss a game. I don't miss a game often. I don't miss rugby, I miss the occasion, running out of twickling, running out of stoop, all those kind of things, the big derby games, that's what you miss, and even now that gets my juices going. Um, but like I said, you get fulfillment satisfaction elsewhere, so yeah, to go over to America where all of a sudden you're playing in front of a thousand people instead of kind of 15,000 people, it's a much more relaxed environment. I was cruising around on an electric bike, trying to surf. Um, yeah, it was really good. Our son was actually born over there, um, and I'd always lived in kind of southwest London. So from going from South West London, a kind of towny house where you're living on each other to going over there where there's space and everyone's outdoor and hiking. Mentally for me it was um really refreshing and allowed me to come back to England in a really good kind of mental space.

SPEAKER_01: 40:15

And that that was the last team you played for coming coming back to England you you came back to start a new non-rugby life?

SPEAKER_00: 40:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 40:21

So just uh I guess another question on um on on finishing off you know you said when you were at Quinn's you you were noticing you weren't the player you used to be you know your body wasn't what it once was is it common to be that honest with yourself in sport because I would imagine that you know so many of the bigger sports guys particularly someone who's captain the country captain the team you know it comes comes with a massive ego and you almost think that you're invincible you'll last forever I'm still kicking everyone's ass.

SPEAKER_02: 40:47

I mean I mean do you do you think that's a that honesty is a is a reasonably rare quality with people like you um but I mean possibly I I mean I definitely know some people who who've been having a club kicking and screaming basically and say blame everyone else except before you blame yourself and stuff like that. And yeah look I I don't know I've always been I like to think I've always been pretty level headed with stuff um and for me the club the club was brilliant to me and the support they've given me and like I said to support as a boy a boy to captain and to win stuff with them to celebrate to I mean when I left they honoured me with a bar. I've got a bar with a suit which is incredible with my kind of merchandise not merchandise with kind of old memorabilia and stuff like that and it's it's amazing um and you want you want to be honest by them and look I mean if they came back to me now and said you know what can you can we get a year out of you I I don't know how long I would last I would last about five minutes if that as long as the ball didn't come anywhere near me I'd probably be alright. But yeah I think you just know in yourself and even training now I feel like one of those old Rocky movies trying to make it come back and you think you're okay and then you see like a video of it or something you're like oh no I was yeah it's probably the right time. Is it nice to not have to train as hard as you did or do you or do you still take uh take your exercise as seriously as back then yeah no I definitely take it as seriously um so I uh last year I did the London marathon again I just needed something I I'd retired I was probably like most retired people who had been professional sports enjoyed retired life a little bit too much a little bit too many many nice meals too many extra drinks and stuff like that and it was it was catching up on the waistline um so I signed up to the marathon thought I needed I need a focus I need a it's hard for me who and I think a lot of sports people find this actually you've always trained with people so when you go to the gym I train with two other players you have an SNC coach who helps you tells you what to do all that kind of stuff so you go to the gym now you're on your own there's not many people around you're kind of thinking of your own stuff to motivate yourself when you don't have a goal is uh is quite tough. So I have so much envy for people who manage to do that pre-work, post work, uh lunch times so for me, yeah it's definitely trying to manage that so now I'm trying to sign up to little fitness games or something just to look I'm not gonna be a CrossFit champion or anything like that but at least being in it it gives me a bit more of a focus to train a little bit harder and maybe eat a little bit better. Saying we just had our banana bread but I still enjoy retirement I still am retirement chicken cat sick well yeah let's that was off camera um but also like I miss the levels your body got to that that's what I miss and I know I won't be able to get anywhere near that now like I remember with England we would have there was a stage where we're doing wrestling at six in the morning and then doing three or four sessions a day and then doing it again in a sand pit at like six o'clock in the evening and it's that type of thing which now my body would not be able to think but you look back and you see videos of the weights you used to live and now I wouldn't even be able to squat with what I was kind of uh pushing with one arm and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01: 44:03

It's the much senior stuff that you can do I know a couple of the guys I I know out in Dubai they play in the the sevens over there and things is that is that something that you can I've been asked to do stuff like that but unfortunately in in San Diego I just looked at my shoulder the last game I played as well.

SPEAKER_02: 44:16

Last game. Yeah and I think I was um and R in if I was ever going to play it or do another year and I think that was just that final was that always gonna was it always gonna be the last game it it was in my head but there's always that thought like you said can I do it again and I think that for me it was my body just saying you're done you're done I mean if ever there was a clear and obvious like solution but yeah a lot of um I do get a lot asked to play a lot in these kind of vets games and legends games and all that kind of stuff I've I have too many mates who have played in them and because you're competitive you say oh you take it but you don't you don't you're you're you're committed to stuff and I know too many people who have ruptured biceps or dislocated shoulders and you know when you're doing it professionally and you have full-time physio and all that kind of stuff it's your it's you it is a job really um although it doesn't feel like it you have the equipment to get you through injuries but when you're doing it for a bit of fun I think yeah so for me I haven't had to scratch that itch yet I'm sure in maybe 10 years five ten years time when you want to catch up with all your mates and uh go yeah play playing Dubai in the sun yeah you'll be looking like Stallone or or yeah the big gut hanging over his shorts or something yeah I'll be that guy you'd be like I thought but that's also one of my fears actually I don't want to be that in a in a vain way where someone looks at you and goes is didn't that used to be Chris Rubshaw or something and then you you again you've ballooned up and all that kind of stuff so in my head that's actually one of my big drivers to try and stay in shape.

SPEAKER_01: 45:51

Let's go life after rugby um and I guess just just just before we do again let's set the scene on that um let's just talk a little bit about money you you mentioned at the beginning that you I think your first um your your first contract was like four four thousand pounds and you you you really felt like you'd made it how's the money been over your career and how how have you been uh in in in terms of your your relationship with money you know do do you do you appreciate your playing career is going to end are you are are you a saver or a spender and an an investor yeah look it's um it's an interesting one look i was I was lucky I got I got paid well but well by Quinns and and with England you earn you earn well and stuff and I always say like people are like oh do you do rugby players earn as much as footballers and no they don't what what's a what's a top rugby player earning yeah so I say rugby guys probably earn what a footballer earns in a week in a year.

SPEAKER_02: 46:37

Okay. So you'll have the big players who will earn probably 250 to kind of that 750 ish and then the squad guys probably yeah between the 100 mark somewhere in that line and the academy a bit obviously less.

SPEAKER_01: 46:50

Is that all from playing or is that 250 to 750 is that also an accumulation of sponsorships and off pitch things as well or is that what they'd actually get so so that would probably be their club salaries.

SPEAKER_02: 47:00

Okay. Um and then with with England you would earn 20 odd thousand a game depending on thing okay but then you might have set some of the bigger players may have separate endorsements through boot deals or car sponsors or or bits like that. So all kind of areas so yeah like I said you do earn you do earn very well but it's not enough to go and sit on a beach and retire for the rest of your life even if you invest well maybe if we invest with you. So yeah so for me it was yeah trying to I was I would always like to spend money on experiences so I'd like to go on a nice holiday or something like that but I wasn't a big a big spender in I don't know flashy clothes and all that kind of stuff I wasn't too worried.

SPEAKER_01: 47:40

And had you been investing through your career?

SPEAKER_02: 47:42

Yeah I had I had done the usual thing where stocks and shares the kind of safety stuff I'd done a bit of property I've got a couple of coffee shops.

SPEAKER_01: 47:52

Where did that come about?

SPEAKER_02: 47:54

Again it's more well I think once you had the kind of the safety aspect of it I mean stocks and shares quite boring really aren't they uh for me I I always like to invest in people. I always think people and I think if people have and it doesn't always have to be the best idea but I think you can often tell someone who's going to succeed. It might not be the first thing they succeed with uh but generally they're gonna make something happen. And a group of friends we got together and kind of yeah wanted to wanted to get involved and do something a little bit different. I had some some money at the time and I thought why not give this a go um and that was good fun yeah Josie's down in the Hampshire region. I'm involved in a a suit brand an events company um but then on the other side I've also had some bits which have caused me a lot of issues I I mean my wife we stupidly invested in film which anyone listen don't do it don't do it were you were you investing for the investment or you were investing for the tax break? For the investment right uh yeah for the investment and and again more just a bit of fun a bit of a gamble and it and it really was a gamble um but then there's other things like said in I've done some stuff recently in a um a Myomaster product a recovery product okay um and they were just on Dragon's Den again investment from Gary Neville and and one of the others I can't remember who um so again there's I like to have a range of stuff it's it's a bit of fun isn't it like a lot of them of course you want to do well and succeed um but rather than just been all in stocks and shares I want to see the product do well of course um but also I love seeing something out there and being oh yeah that's well or or hearing someone talk about it in a good light.

SPEAKER_01: 49:25

So you finished playing you've obviously you've got you've got you've got some investments you've you've earned well but not enough to retire um did did you know what you were going to do immediately after you finished or did you think well you know I know I need to do something but I've got I've got a bit of time to uh to find my feet so I don't need to rush into it.

SPEAKER_02: 49:42

Yeah I I didn't know um and everyone asks when you probably get to around the 30 mark in sport everyone says so what are you gonna do next? And it used to drive me mad because I didn't know and you would try and find I knew I didn't want to coach I knew I didn't want to go down that route. Why um just didn't enjoy it didn't enjoy it um it's tough it's stressful it's a it's a big time commitment and for me I loved playing the game I love playing the game I I did of course analysis and stuff but I wasn't you get some players who's so anal analysis driven and stuff and they watch every clip and all that kind of stuff and I did bits of that but I wasn't too excited by that side of the game. Yeah so I knew I didn't really want to go I given a lot of weekends up time commitments all that kind of stuff for playing because I love playing but it's also the sacrifice your family have to make and all that kind of stuff. So I wanted to be around a bit um so yeah I didn't want to go and that run I've always been a bit business minded with kind of investment bits and family family little bits um but no I didn't I didn't have a clear solution I didn't have a clear solution and and I think you're just gonna get out there and meet people and it's almost finding out what you don't enjoy as well and that's kind of half the battle and I I actually met someone at an airport.

SPEAKER_01: 50:54

I met someone at the airport someone came and said from Galaga Insurance and they had a similar conversation they said oh what so what are you going to do and I said well I don't know and they're like well why don't you come and try a couple of days a week with us see if you enjoy it um so I do yeah two days a week with Gallagher and then also I went I went to do and met someone from Phoenix Fine Wine Investment um and I do a day a week with them a similar thing like each other's approach got chatting um and really getting into that kind of wine side as well the tastings that the I mean the trips down to Bordeaux and Chateau's uh they're not bad are they I go to Tuscany in a couple of weeks as well um I said look there's some there's some great opportunities and and then me and my wife and this is what we're we're really passionate about set a foundation up called the Curzlake Robshire Foundation to empower young lives through music and sport and and that for us is we'd always helped other other charities and stuff and as I said rugby's been very good to me and music's very good to my wife and we thought you know what unfortunately everyone's not so lucky and everyone doesn't have those opportunities so let's get out there and try and help and um to this this point so far I think we've raised um just over 200 000 for various causes around the country um sticking to our our pillars of music and sport amazing with uh just going back to to uh the wine and the gallagas what what is your role within those uh uh are you are you um bringing in contacts you being a face what do you do yeah so um so a bit of both yeah um so a lot of business development kind of side of things and and and and is that is that um new relationships new business development for you or you are you leaning in on your existing network and i've i've seen a bit in rugby um because i guess any any any uh famous sports people you know they've always they've always got people around them who who who want to know them and uh yeah there's a there's a there's a fine balance always fine because you can really take advantage of the fact that everybody wants to know you but then I normally find that most people don't because you know they they want to be arrogant for want of a better word about the fame it's like oh I'm I'm I'm a I'm a football player you know I earn a load of dough I can't be arsed talking to these people and then when your career's finished you learn very quickly that people actually don't want to talk to you anymore and you know maybe it doesn't matter so much in football if you've been earning you know uh mega mega bucks but you know in in rugby like I said I would imagine the fame and the money will dwindle pretty quickly and the time to take advantage of it is the time you probably don't want to take advantage of it you know um but but you know I I have seen some people you know do very well in building that network during the playing career to then to then parlay it into something else after the fact so just uh I guess yeah take take take that and run with it a bit yeah but it's a bit of rugby speak that isn't it take it take it and run with it don't score that don't drop the ball oh perfect yeah and exactly that yeah they want to get into your your your network and and all that kind of stuff and and precisely that there's times as a player and I used to I was quite proactive with that kind of stuff where you you've got to get out there to meet people and there are so many players who will be having before you uh personally having stuff like testimonial dinners or charity events and and look you're very lucky when you go and host these tables because you are you're going to a room where you don't know anyone as well so it can be quite an intimidating environment and you're hosting a table of 10 who you've never met before but also normally these are high net worth individuals they're big corporations all that kind of stuff so you are yeah you are having an inn with some people and it gives you that opportunity to to speak to them to meet new people and look in all honesty that's where when we do our charity dues when we do the work I'm doing through the wine and the insurance it's come through being out and about and meeting people and and actually the dues I didn't want to go is where I met the wine company I work for.

SPEAKER_02: 54:29

So again it's just having that courage and you never know what's going to come from it and and the big thing you said there is might happen. Something might happen it's not necessarily going to happen but if you're not in a room initially it's definitely not going to happen. So I think yeah just being a bit you've got to be proactive that's for sure because like you said when you're when you're playing or you're playing for England every door would open for you. But when you stop playing and you stop playing club those doors don't quite open as much and over time someone else is in that room. So you've got to get out there and you've got to be proactive and and also you've got to you've got to be interested in what you're going to you've you've got to enjoy it you've got to get that buzz out of it because like we said earlier it's not playing in front of 8000 people but you still want to enjoy going to work you still want to enjoy the people you're working with and the environment that's been created the culture of it and all that kind of stuff is really important as well.

SPEAKER_01: 55:16

What lessons do you think you've learnt playing rugby that are that are applicable to business I guess you know yeah any any any parallels of sport and business?

SPEAKER_02: 55:24

Yeah it's really really interesting actually um I think continuing to surround yourself with with people who know more than yourself and kind of try to pick their brains and don't just learn from one industry. Like I said when I was a captain I'd like to speak to people captains in particular who are in different sports because there are a lot of parallels but there's also a lot of differences. So try and pick the brains of other leaders in their industry as well because there's a couple of things which if you just tweak something might might happen. I do think in the corporate world things tend to be a little bit slower whereas in sport everything's instant if you make a mistake you've got to rectify it there and then if you haven't it's your mistake a mistake a mistake. Whereas I think in the corporate world because there are so many so many ladders you've got to climb up and change you've got to go through it can be a little bit slower. So trying to speed up that process is important.

SPEAKER_01: 56:21

Just on that I mean do you try and apply that to your own businesses in the businesses that you work in now you have some of your own some some some are other people's I mean do you try and bring bring that speed of execution to that?

SPEAKER_02: 56:32

Yeah a little bit and and that's that's very much the saying we used to use in in kind of the rugby world and probably one which I struggled with initially and it was a saying from that boat that great kind of boat era of Redgrave and Kraken and all that kind of stuff and it said if it makes a boat go faster do it. It doesn't have to be your idea or my idea whatever whoever's idea it is it doesn't matter is it going to make us go faster then we do it. And that that for me as a young captain is something I struggle with. I thought it had to be my idea and I think some some leaders not necessarily I am but I just think some leaders and when I was a young captain are it's got to be me. I'm the leader I don't want to be given your idea because you might get promoted above me kind of thing. And there is there is a little bit of that in in various workplaces um in in all walks of life everyone's kind of looking out for themselves and I think when you really create a good culture that supports each other and wants people to do well that's when you really flourish so a lot of it is culture driven um and any environment where you have a good culture generally success will probably happen in one form or another.

SPEAKER_01: 57:38

How would you say you know one should create a good culture you know how how how do you think you've done that in in in the teams that you've captained or what what would your advice be to a a budding business owner who's who's struggling with growth and struggling with uh you know culture development yeah I think I think honesty um but I think there's one thing being honest but you have to understand the people like if I if I we we don't we didn't know each other before today but if I didn't know you at all and just said that was completely terrible you you messed up whatever you might react really poorly to that message.

SPEAKER_02: 58:12

But if I had a quiet word with you and said you know what look we need you to adjust this because what you did the other day is really let this department down or whatever and I think it's it's almost it's team management it's people per people management and stuff like that is so important these days because how do you get the person to improve and like I said when I was young it was all stick stick stick but as you uh get older as you evolve you learn to deal with people a lot better and you learn personalities rather than just say you're an employer or a rugby player whatever I'm not going to treat you all the same. So that for me is is a really valuable lesson that and also understanding young people young people coming into the workplace and look I've I'm very new to the work environment it's very different but I know in a sporting environment when I was last captain there and last playing the young players were very different to the older players were when they were that but that's just time and that's life isn't it now life and people are working in different environments people are working from home people are working from like I said about the schooling system on the floor on sofas on a kitchen table whatever it be and you can almost educate yourself in that so I always think that companies should if they can obviously budgets and all encourage people to uh further and develop themselves because them going away and doing a course is going to come back and benefit you. They're gonna bring ideas because they're gonna be in a room with people from I don't know 15 different businesses. You're gonna pick each other's brains so why not I think don't don't be scared of the change.

SPEAKER_01: 59:35

And you talk carrot and stick and listen I am I am all for the carrot. The stick does need to be shown now and again but I am I am all for carrot over stick. I think there's there's there's also a there's also a fine balance you know where where too much carrot you know particular it becomes woke as well in in in today's world. Have you seen that spill into rugby?

SPEAKER_02: 59:53

I mean has has rugby got some some wokiness in it um look I'm I'm sure it does but I think we've I think sport sport is a obviously a little bit different to a business point of view because you can you can like like I said still punish people with fitness or keep them under training pitch longer and and all that kind of you can physically tie them out which I can't imagine in an office or the offices I've been we're not out there doing shuttles at the car park at lunchtime. Do you know what I mean? Maybe maybe maybe maybe that's what it's missing. Maybe that's what maybe I'm going in on Monday and I'm gonna tell the business I'm involved. Okay, we're having a bleep test on Monday in the car park, shuttles between all the lines. So look look, it is different, and I I know it is very different because you are like that and you spend so much time together. Um and of course being a physical sport as well, you do need to form those bonds because if you don't trust the people you work with, and I always say, look, you don't you don't have to like each other, but you have to trust and respect each other because when you go onto that pitch on the weekend, you all have to be in the same wavelength, whether you like the person or not. Because look, you're in a in a rugby environment of 40-50 players, you're not all gonna be best mates, you're not all gonna be that. But once you know you're all pulling in the same direction, and same in the workplace, you've got to you've got to respect the people in their roles. Um, but that respect is not just given out, you've got to earn it every day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:11

Talk a little bit about uh homosexuality in in modern sport as well. I mean, uh, you know, again, my horrendous sporting knowledge will not be able to name names, but uh over the last few years there's been there's been a couple of reasonably high profile uh come out come outs in rugby. I mean, is that something you had personal experience of in terms in terms of playing playing with these guys? And and and how um and how does it how is it reacted to and taken in the team? Because I guess there's what the media writes about, but you know, we all know to you know to take that with a pinch of salt at the best of times.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:41

Yeah, look, I um I always say look, and I'm probably a bit biased because I was in rugby and stuff like that, and still in it. And I I we always say rugby we're we're a game for for all shapes and sizes and again and a game for all, uh, regardless of of anything. Um and I and I think with that we've we've had of course Nigel Owens, the first openly gay rugby referee, and he's been brilliant with some of his one-liners, and he's been such a big advocate for people feeling comfortable. Um, and from his experience, I don't think he's ever felt threatened on the rugby pitch through anything to do with that or through homophobia. And I think with in the rugby environment, like like the football now, like other sports, we have kind of a pride weekend at Harlequins, they have a pride game, so they will kind of have the flags out, they'll have all the um the rainbow colours or through fireworks and stuff like that to to help promote it and to to help people feel more comfortable. Because I remember I've I've spoken a bit and I've been on Pride marches with rugby teams and stuff in London. Um and I've had people reach out to me and say, Look, I'm I'm Welsh and I hate you for your rugby, but I really respect you, and you've given me confidence to be who I am, and that and that for me has touched me, and that was such a little thing, and and uh rugby is uh old school bravado sport mask and all that kind of stuff, and I think with with rugby we are and we like to think we are trying to make people feel comfortable with who they are.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:12

Well, I have no fear that it'll be something exciting, it'll be something that you're very successful at. And I can't let you leave without giving us a quick view on um or your your quick view on uh England rugby at the moment. I think contextually, uh they lost to France two or three weeks ago, didn't they? Um I mean what what you know, how are they doing? What can they do to do better? What have you got to look forward to?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:31

Yeah, really interesting because they um they came third in the World Cup recently, um, and everyone said they weren't playing a brilliant brand of rugby. They were a little bit slow getting into the previous Six Nations, 2024 Six Nations, but the last two games were epic. They beat they beat Ireland at Twickenham, and I haven't seen Twickenham in that atmosphere in a long, long time. They scored amazing tries, they were electric, they were abrasive in defence, and then went over to France, which people didn't really give them much hope, and they lost last kick of the game by a point, and they played some brilliant rugby over there. So, in honestly, I think England rugby is in a really good place. They go to Japan this summer and New Zealand, so look, that's that's gonna be a tough tour going down there. I don't think England have won a series down there, but it's a good challenge for them. A young group, hungry, and when you're young, you have no fear, you have no fear, and sometimes that's a bad thing, uh, but they have no fear, so they're gonna go there and and really enjoy that. The premiership is is growing, it's it's fantastic. The games are brilliant. We're getting towards a knockout end of the season, um, so it's kind of rittling down, but every game is sold out, the the sun's coming out, so the ball's being thrown around a little bit more. And I actually think now in this country, rugby is fine, and it's taken a little bit of time finally recovering post-COVID. COVID, like all sports, really knocked it, all businesses really knocked it. But I feel this season in particular, it's taken a massive step forward to getting back to where it was, and and stuff like the Netflix documentary. So there's a Netflix show on rugby, which again was um it's a massive help for the game. To I'm sure you know everything that Drive to Survive did for that, and the tennis has done a full swing and all that kind of it's brilliant just to get more people looking at the game, and yes, it might not all be correct or whatever, but it doesn't matter, does it? It's it's still TV and it's getting more people involved. Um, so look, I think rugby is yeah, getting back on track.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:26

Well, listen, it's been uh it's been a great chat, it's been uh an exciting, uh, you know, I guess an exciting event for me past past 20, 25 years for you. Uh look at look looking ahead from now, you know, what what do you want the next kind of five, 10, 15 years to hold?

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:40

Yeah, interesting. Um and I'm probably at that stage now where before everyone was saying kind of so what next, and now everyone says so we're gonna be in five years. And um, you know, I I I still don't know, but I don't know if you ever know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:54

It's it's almost funny, you know, when you ask that question of someone like yourself, it kind of almost is that sports people are 20 years behind everybody else because you you you you know you'd normally be asking that some that of someone who's 22, 23, 24, fit finished uni, but it's almost like you've um you've lost 20 years of your life doing doing doing a parallel activity and now uh and that now you're starting from zero again.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:16

And that and that's what I say to people. I say, look, you when you finish university, you bounced around for a couple of years, did this job, didn't like that job, did that. Whereas we're doing it 15, 20 years later with mortgages, with kids, all that kind of stuff, and you're trying to find. Look, I I don't know. Um from a foundation point of view, I would like us to raise a million pounds in 10 years for various causes. That's my goal with that, which which hopefully we'll get to. From a personal business perspective, still working it out. From a family point of view, Evan always says it goes very quickly, so don't rush it away and be there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:53

So quick.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:53

And and be there. So and look, unfortunately, with my father passing, I want to I want to be there as much as possible. So yeah, I'm I'm trying to do that. Everyone says is he gonna play rugby? Uh I'm not sure. I want him to be sporty because I want to play sport with him, and then we'll then we'll see. But in terms of a work point of view, yeah, and I I speak to players actually a little bit further along than me, five, ten years ahead of me. And they say it probably takes them about seven years, they reckon, to be happy and kind of fulfilled with where they are in terms of yes, they bounce around a bit and now they've got uh this is my career now. Um so hopefully it'll be touch space in five, ten years. I'll know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:35

Awesome. Well, listen, Chris, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:39

Pleasure, thank you.