Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
Welcome to 'Stripping Off with Matt Haycox,' where we bare it all on business, money, and life. Get ready to peel back the layers of success with entrepreneur, investor, funding expert, and mentor with over 20 years of experience building and growing businesses, Matt Haycox.
Tune into steamy conversations with industry titans, celebrities, and successful entrepreneurs as they strip down their stories of triumphs, setbacks, and the raw realities of their journey to the top. Matt is going down on business, money, and life, and will take DMCs to new heights!
Stripping Off with Matt Haycox
James Haskell Uncensored: Rugby’s Failures, ADHD & Life After Fame
Tell us what you like or dislike about this episode!! Be honest, we don't bite!
“Rugby is backwards.” James Haskell doesn’t hold back.
In this episode, he sits down with Matt Haycox to rip into the modern game –from broken business models and culture wars to mental health, ADHD and what happens when the stadium lights go off.
James talks openly about his rise through professional rugby, playing for England and the Lions, and the reality behind contracts, pay and how badly the sport is run off the pitch. He also dives into therapy, diagnosis, anger, chasing money for the wrong reasons, and what it took to rebuild his life, marriage and identity after rugby.
If you care about elite performance, mental health, building wealth after your first career, or just want to hear someone say what everyone else is thinking, you’ll get a lot from this one.
You’ll hear James and Matt talk about:
- Why rugby is “backwards and broken” behind the scenes.
- ADHD, mental health, therapy and managing anger.
- Fame, ambition and the realities of chasing wealth.
- Money management, investing and life after rugby.
- Fatherhood, relationships and what legacy really means.
Timestamps
0:00 – Intro
1:14 – Coming Up
6:26 – Rugby Career Beginnings & Professional Milestone
13:17 – International Rugby Success
18:53 – The Business and Future of Rugby
27:05 – Inclusion, Diversity and Sports Culture
38:26 – Mental Health and ADHD
47:14 – Mindset, Ambition and Wealth
58:13 – Financial Management and Business Ventures
01:07:24 – Life and Fatherhood
01:10:27 – Personal Relationships, Mentorship and Legacy
Resources & Links:
- James Haskell: Instagram: @jameshaskell
- Buzzsprout/Podcast: Listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts: https://strippingoffwithmatthaycox.buzzsprout.com
- Follow Stripping Off on YouTube
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Rugby thinks, because it's run by old boys in Middle England who are Porsche entitled, that it's the greatest sport in the world.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome to the show, James Haskell. In two thousand seven, obviously you achieved your childhood dream of playing rugby for England.
SPEAKER_00:To make your debut at the Millennium Stadium against Wales, roof closed, and the final game of the Six Nations. It was an amazing experience to the business of rugby.
SPEAKER_03:There's a lot being said about the proof and financial model of it.
SPEAKER_00:Mate, it's so backward, out of touch, unrelatable, disparate, badly run. It's big as belief. Just noticed you've got normal ears. I have, yeah, yeah. See the state of a penis and I'm initiation of rugby. This is a song for the ladies, but fellas close. Sometimes you've got to squeeze.
SPEAKER_03:Talk to me about money during your career and did you make investments? How did you take advice?
SPEAKER_00:I use all the vehicles that were to my disposal, like pensions and savings and ice. I am always one comment and one podcast away from getting cancelled and not getting paid, and all my money is public facing that. You were diagnosed with ADHD nowadays. Everyone's got ADHD, everyone's got anxieties. Everybody wakes up going, what the fuck am I doing? Why am I here? I don't like my life. I want this, I don't want that. Is that depression? Even if you know you were diddled as a kid, there's no reason to be a prick.
SPEAKER_03:Let's talk about the uh the business of rugby. I mean, I mean there's uh there's a there's a lot being said uh lately about uh about the broken financial model of it, really. I mean, can can we can you go into a bit of detail on that and uh you know how how would you fix it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, I think rugby uh rugby's in a hole. I think the reason it's in a whole, I'll give an example why it's in a whole. Netflix document Netflix have worked with every major sport in in the world cycling, cricket, F1, Drive to Survive basically resurrected F1's popularity. Rugby's the only sport that had anything to say about Netflix coming in and was complaining and stopped them being difficult. Net rugby thinks, because it's run by old boys in Middle England who are Porsche entitled, think that it's it's um the greatest sport in the world. Mate, it's so backward, out of touch, unrelatable, disparate, and badly run that you would you you you you you just you know, you it's beggars belief. Every governing body, especially the RFU, uh are so hell-bent on controlling the narrative around the media, like what you can say, what you can't say, telling lads what they can do. There's people in RFU tops running around panicking, going, don't say this, don't do this. Sponsors with sponsor activation, you know, always saying what you can't do, you can't do, you know, can't do this, can't do this, can't do this. Instead of being like, right, how do we grow this game? What can you do? How can we be positive? How you know, can't how do we encourage lads to be have a personality? You know, why is the top level of the game still connected to the grassroots of rugby? What the fuck has a grassroots got to anything with a top level? Grassroots rugby is great, it's full of characters, camarader, all that stuff. That can carry on being what it is. The top level of the game needs to become a summer sport, needs to separate away from there. The values of rugby, all this stuff, you know, like whatever the hell they are, that's fine for the local rugby clubs, boys in blazes, that's absolutely fine. Top level needs to be uh monetised, needs to become an entertainment business like the NFL, needs to be big, bold, and bright, shorter seasons, um, all connected, um, a summer sport. We need to, you know, completely change the way it's marketed. The fan experience on game day needs to be to be um changed. The the footage needs to go on one central um TV programme so everyone can find it. You need spin-off shows off the back of it, you need Netflix documentary on players like like the like the quarterback thing, you know. There's rugby's complaining about letting cameras in in case you know they see a coach call someone a cunt.
SPEAKER_01:You've got Netflix have actually knocked it. Sorry, um rugby's actually knocked out of the clock.
SPEAKER_00:No, they didn't they finally did accept it, but then you know they're now squabbling over things like you know what you can put in and what you can't put in, and you know, and they were like turning cameras off and telling people to go away, and everyone was so worried about it. You know, you need everybody wants to know what's under the bonnet, and you know, and if you actually don't let them in, they're shitting worse is going on than than actually it is. You know, you've got Patrick Mahomes, you know, has won three Super Bowls now. You've got cameras living with him for that quarterback documentary on Netflix, plus two other quarterbacks. You know, you've got uh, you know, these untold stories on Netflix, they are what is the is keeping the streaming giant alive. Everything is about looking under the bonnet, seeing what people are doing. You know, rugby's all about stay humble, don't put your head above parapets, stay, you know, be quiet. You've got negative, you know, negative written press all the time. These blokes, they're not up with social media, they're out of touch, they've been in the business for 20 years. They're just, you know, they're all good guys, but it's just it's just not what you want. You know, the first sign of anything super negative, this country's riddled with tall poppy syndrome. You know, in America, it's about championing, you know, the American dream, success, being positive, getting out of here is we'll build you up, then we'll fuck you, and then we fuck you, we'll burn your ashes and piss on them until you and then until you're gone. You know, and then everyone loves a uh you know, a redemption story. And I just I saw this thing the other day. Again, he's not a great example of because of what happened back in the day. But Michael Barrymore, you know, Michael Barrymore obviously had a complete you know nightmare, you know, whatever, was sewing on grata. He's obviously got back on TikTok. He's now got a million odd followers on TikTok, super positive, super fun. Um, everyone loves him. He's a redemption story, he's kind of got back. They bring him onto GMB the other day, and they're absolutely hammering him, slurring his words, mugging him off, and it's like fucking hell. You know, just everything is so negative in this country. And rugby is particularly negative because it's out of touch, dated, irrelevant. Um, you know, it's and it's always about what you can't do, what you shouldn't do, instead of like how do we make this better? And they could they just can't, I don't know what no one can link up at the top of the game.
SPEAKER_03:Guys, Matt Haycock's here. Today I have got British sporting royalty. We've got the man who played rugby 77 times for England. He's won four Six Nations championships, multiple club championships in France and England. He's played with distinction for the British Lions, and he's the man who has earned the nickname La Machine. Welcome to the show, James Haskell. Hello, mate. Thank you for having me. I feel like I want to redo that intro and say the man who earned the nickname dot com cancel.
SPEAKER_00:Much more exciting. I mean, it does sound like I've given you the nickname La Machine, and actually the reality is something very different. Yeah, I've I I didn't actually think um I was very jealous of um boys who had really cool nicknames. I never I've never had a nickname, well, not one that you would you you would want. And has as far as it got. And I remember one lad turned up at um Harlequin's training, another club, on his first day, and said to all the lads, Um, my nickname's called the Duke, boys called me Dukey. And it stuck and they were like, Duke it, all right, lad. I could quite like something like that. But no, a dot com, dot com count was kind of the the best it ever got, really.
SPEAKER_03:Well, look, let's talk about rugby. Uh let's uh let's go back to the beginning and uh I mean uh t tell me about your childhood, when when you found an interest and passion for rugby and what happened from there.
SPEAKER_00:Well, so I never wanted to be a rugby player. Um I kind of was um, you know, we kind of came from a privileged background, great parents, extremely hardworking. My mum worked, my dad worked um all the way through my kind of my my child and my mum obviously took a took a period of time off. Um I kind of ended up following my dad's in my dad's footsteps, going to the same schools as he did. Um, you know, one was a a pap wick and ask it, um another was Wellington College. Both very sporting, but kind of had lots of stuff on. Did you dad play sport? No, no, we did, but not onto any level. Um I kind of, as I said, I I kind of played you know, club rugby. My dad was into rugby. I I, you know, I think now kids are exposed to so much more because of social media and you know, 24-hour news and 24-hour sport. I just, you know, my childhood was spent pretending to run around outside, you know, um doing army stuff, running around building forts, played every single sport. My I was very active. My parents, you know, I did judo, tennis, football, cricket, rugby, everything. Um, I was always doing something. I think my ballet, tap dance, whatever my my mum could get you know, get me and my brother out of the house with, we would do that. You know, there's only two things I really wanted to do when I was um younger, and that was join the SAS um or drive a digger. And my dad said basically the amount of money he spent on my, well, wasted on my education that I wasn't um able to drive a digger. Um, because I think he wanted he wanted letters after my name that just weren't meant to be JCB. Um and then my mum um my mum said, Listen, you can't join the SS because you're gonna get shot. Um I think when she said by my own side, I was a bit like, okay, with that level of confidence. And the kind of rugby I got into by by going to these schools, um, school rugby was taken quite seriously, and it became my vehicle of success, really. Um I I I enjoyed it, but I I was I wasn't like super die hard about it. I think what what I discovered was in sport, if you have um, if you work hard, put in what put in what's required, put in more than than required, you um commit to it, you're good, you get an opportunity. If you take the opportunity, you play well, you become successful. And it's a very linear process, very, you know, you start at the bottom, here's the pinnacle playing for England and the Lions, here's a trajectory. Um, your success is is quite simple. You get a start, you play well, you move on, and you make it to the next level. Whereas most things in life are very difficult to grade. You know, how what is money a child because in the real world, is money a um sort of a level of success? Does that make you successful? Or does um, you know, does job position um how how do you tell it? Whereas we're sport, if you're not good enough, you're told you're good enough. Um, and it's very simple. And so rugby became my sort of vehicle for success, but it could have been anything that I could I could work at, get better at, have a teacher-pupil relationship, learn, put it into practice, and move forward. And you know, I started when I was five and I only really kicked on when I got to Wellington College. So I was about 13, 14, started taking things more seriously, got into a trial for England under 16, got all the way to the final trial, didn't get in, didn't play particularly well, didn't put the extra training in, you know, didn't do what I should have done. Obviously was really disappointed afterwards of not making it in. It was kind of the first real disappointment I'd had in my in my life. You know, someone calling up and saying you're not good enough, everything else has kind of gone okay. Um, and I remember my dad saying to me, it's kind of real point at the moment on the phone, saying, Look, um, you know, you and I both know you didn't put the work in, you and I both know you weren't fit enough, didn't train well enough, didn't do what it was, you know, didn't psychologically weren't right. Um, you can either see this as an opportunity to get come back stronger and have a go again next year, or you can just play rugby for fun. And I was like, fuck this, I want to have a go at it. And we gotta we've got to.
SPEAKER_03:Did you agree? Did you believe?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I again I I think it's very hard to hear um that you aren't good enough. And I think you men has been particularly male ego, even at that age, is a real thing.
SPEAKER_03:And I Well I think particularly at 16, you know, when when you're older and you know now you're experienced and you can be honest with yourself about good days and bad days, but I think at 16 you don't want to admit anything, do you?
SPEAKER_00:No, but but I also think now as well, like if you're if you're now if you're more if you're successful now, um it's even harder to hear because you're like, fuck off. I, you know, I've done, you know, like I think when you build a certain even I think you're right, when you're younger, it's hard to hear. I think actually, you know, look at look at big men and and successful men in particular. How hard is it for you, you know, like you're a very successful man, for someone to turn around and go, actually, I don't think what you're doing is right or is is not as efficient. You'd be like, well, hold on a minute, I've got this, this, this, this, I've done this. And sometimes it's very difficult to see the wood for the trees. I think back then it was hard because I, you know, I think I was very cried when they told me I wasn't going to get in. I was very emotional, I was very soft mentally. I'd never, you know, I didn't have a lot of self-confidence. I didn't understand what uh you know working hard and committing, you know, committing to something was. I heard it, but I think there was that voice in your head where you go, you know, um, are they telling the truth? Is there anything I see? And I and I had that. And I was like, do you know what? My dad's right. And he had always said to me, you can lie to everyone else, but you can't lie to yourself. And I think if if you take nothing more from this, or nothing away from this podcast other than that, I would say that's the truth because the world is full of um, you know, uh reasons why you shouldn't be where you want to be and why you shouldn't have success. Um, and you can tell everyone that you're putting the work and you can tell everyone you're committed, you can tell everyone you're working at yourself, you're doing everything. But ultimately, when you go to bed at night, you switch your phone off and you're left with your own thoughts. Only you know what you're doing, and I knew that I wasn't doing what I should do. And so I started working with a um a personal trainer who was a friend of the family, a guy called Henry, um, Armenian guy, um, and he'd come in twice a week to to boarding school, and I started training and a bit like a Rocky Montage. I got fitter, bigger, stronger, more committed. I enjoyed the discipline, I enjoyed the purpose, I liked um the suffering, um, and I and I kind of just stuck with that for years and years and years. And that now I got into England under 18 the next, the next year, um, or so a year and a half later, captained it. Once you got onto that trajectory, Wass started being interested. And then again, I had more, it's like a drug. You you you get a taste of it, you want more, and you want more, and you want more. And it wasn't necessarily the passion for the game, it was the passion for being better and finding how far I could push myself. And I committed to signing a contract at WAS at 17.
SPEAKER_03:That was your first professional contract.
SPEAKER_00:First professional contract at 17, and I've deferred my university entry for a year, and then 19 and a half seasons, I opened my eyes. I was 35 and retiring, and that's how it happened. I played around the world, and everything in between that was always around the same basis of commitment, of sacrifice, of of of trying to be the best I could be. And that's how it happened. But again, do I watch rugby now? Not really. Do I care about rugby? Not really. Um but it was my vehicle for success. Now I've applied the same stuff to my uh everything else writing books, podcasting, business, DJing. It's the same mentality, and that's that's how I work now, really.
SPEAKER_03:In 2007, obviously you achieved your childhood dream of uh playing rugby for England.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, you know, taught me through that. You know, I mean, I know you've said already that you never really got to appreciate success, and you're probably on to the next thing. But I mean, was there any moment with that like wow, I've you know, I've got my childhood dream?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I mean, I never thought I was gonna play for England. It kind of came as a bit of a surprise that I got a call up. Um it was kind of an yeah, I mean it was an amazing experience to to make your debut at the Millennium Stadium um you know, against Wales, roof closed, um, and the final game of the Six Nations, you know, it was was amazing. We sadly lost. Um, but it was yes, it was it was an amazing moment. And it kind of, you know, the when I ran out for that first national anthem and the flame cannons and the crowd and 80,000 Welsh people, um, and you sing the national, you know, you sing God Save the Queen at the time, you I just couldn't stop smiling. I was like, wow, this is why this is why I'm here, this is what I need to do. This is addictive. I want more of this. How do I get more of this? How do I have this? And I just loved it. And that I think is part of the reason I love rugby again, or sorry, I used rugby as a vehicle because I loved the big stage. Like if you if if you asked me, would I have played rugby in front of one man and a dog? No. I had that wasn't I liked everything about it. I liked feeling special, I liked playing in front of the crowd, I liked being put on a uh uh uh you know in in the media, I liked all of that stuff, and so that was why I did it. And so you want I wanted more of that. Um and you know, I think I had a lot of self-doubt, and I always had done it. Again, it doesn't necessarily marry up with the person you see in front of you now or or or ever before that, but around my ability and around my rugby and my faith in myself and my belief that I was gonna be successful, um, I had a lot of self-doubt. So that was kind of a vindication, you know, that you can't take away a cap of England, you know, whether you believed in yourself or not. And so um that for me was a really important milestone, which I never thought I was gonna get.
SPEAKER_03:And you played 77 times. I mean, you know, when you say you wanted more or more, did the excitement of it wane during those 77 times, or were you kind of sad that there wasn't a 78?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, I was I'm sad I didn't get to 100. You know, I look back at it and go, how many, you know, how many caps did I miss out and how many caps could I more I could have got? And I think I could have got to 100 if I'd if I'd um and you know, but we're the only thing in the animal kingdom that puts any stool by numbers. Um, you know, it's weird. We're the only thing, you know, nothing nothing else in nature does does that, you know, there doesn't nothing aggrades numbers, and I don't think like that. So, you know, I I see my friends have got my colleagues and I've got a hundred caps, you know. I I because of my competitive nature, it makes me then be a bit wistful. Like, fuck, I should have done more, I want more. And then, but I know that's a dangerous, a pointless avenue because you can't make, you can't rewrite history, you can't go forward. You have to be happy with what you got, and I got what I got. Whereas someone would look at me and go, I just would have taken one. And you know, and someone would look at that one person who could play rubber go, I just wish I could walk, and round and round you go. So I I sort of um, you know, there's I I'd never waned. I think there were times that anything that is a passion can become a job. I'm very lucky in retirement. I don't feel like I work a day, but there are moments where you know things become tiring, things become hard. Same thing with rugby, you know, times where I had bad coaches, I wasn't playing particularly well, I was hated in the media, I had all this kind of stuff, and then it becomes a job, and then it becomes a bit like for fuck's sake, and then you're, you know, you're training in the pissing rain, freezing cold, and you're like, I just don't want to do this. But actually, the passion to play for England never waned. I never got complacent, I never didn't enjoy it, and I was always excited by that moment to put that white shirt, and I always felt special, I always loved it. Um at times it was hard, and sometimes some of the worst environments I'd ever been in were those England environments, you know, in terms of coaching, leadership, professionalism, media, storm, you know, and and that that is quite hard. But the actual business of playing rugby and running out on the on uh on a you know for your country never never did never never waned. Did your British Lions success feel different to your England success? It did, but again, you know, my mentality, I didn't get to play to play in one of the tests, so you know I I have my own disappointment around that. But I thought I was gonna go through my career without ever making a lions tour. So, you know, it's it's easy to say, you know, I I got on the Lions tour, but did I become in my mind a full lion? No. Um, but if you ask other people, I am, and but it it's uh that's how competitive. I don't really um walk around patting myself on the on the back. But the lions stuff was amazing because it was such an incredible, it is one of the most unique experiences in rugby. I got to hang around with all the players that I'd played against for years, look behind the curtain, find out what they were actually like, got on with them a house of fire. They, I think, all had their own images of me and what I was gonna be like. I mean, Rory Best, apparently, um famous Irish hooker, you know, when he when he saw that I'd been um selected, he I think he quoted and saying, Oh god, not him. And then I think a lot of people thought I I was gonna be a dick because they see me posing for naked calendars and DJing and going on TV and doing whatever it is, that I was gonna be a prat. Um I am a prat. Well, I said, you know what? I've got a better expression actually. I'm a G C, I'm a good cunt, I'm a cunt, I'm a good cunt. That's basically all you want in life, is to be a GC. Um, it's what they talked about in the Highlanders. They I turned up day one in New Zealand, they're like, Hess mate, you you're a GC? I was like, what's that? Are you a good cunt? I said, I hope so. And that's all you can, that's all I ever want to be. Um, and so I think they discovered that I was a G C and we kind of went from went from there, really. And I got on with um got everyone like a house on fire, made friends for life, um, and absolutely loved the entire experience. And I think they they were all surprised by how I was and my mentality and on the Lions DVDs, they all talked about my role off the field and motivating guys and bringing people together, and and that that's all you can do. And when you're part of that, you if you can add anything to make that experience better for the Lions and move the Lions forward, that's all you can do. I didn't get to represent them them on the test arena, but I was part of it, and and I'll never ever forget that. And so, you know, I I'd rather have that and never have it, and I thought I was never gonna have it.
SPEAKER_03:Let's talk about the uh the business of rugby. I mean, I mean, there's uh there's a there's a lot being said uh lately about uh about the broken financial model of it, really. I mean, can can we can you go into a bit of detail on that and uh you know how how would you fix it?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean, I think rugby, uh rugby's in a hole. I think the reason it's in a whole, I'll give I give an example why it's in a whole Netflix document Netflix have worked with every major sport in in the world cycling, cricket, F1, Drive to Survive, basically resurrected F1's popularity. Rugby's the only sport that had anything to say about Netflix coming in and was complaining and stopped them from being difficult. Net rugby thinks, because it's run by old boys in Middle England who are Porsche entitled, think that it's it's um the greatest sport in the world. Mate, it's so backward, out of touch, unrelatable, disparate, and uh badly run that you would you you you you you you just you know you it's beggars belief. Every governing body, especially the RFU, uh are so hell bent on uh controlling the narrative around the media, like what you can say, what you can't say, telling lads what they can do. There's people in RFU tops running around panicking, going, Don't say this, don't do this. Sponsors with sponsors. For activation, you know, always saying what you can't do, you can't do, you know, can't do this, can't do this, can't do this. Instead of being like, right, how do we grow this game? What can you do? How can we be positive? How you know, can't how do we encourage lads to be have a personality? You know, why is the top level of the game still connected to the grassroots of rugby? What the fuck has a grassroots got to do? Anything with a top level? Grassroots rugby is great, it's full of characters, camarader, all that stuff. That can carry on being what it is. Top level of the game needs to become a summer sport, needs to separate away from there. The values of rugby, all this stuff, you know, like whatever the hell they are, that's fine for the local rugby clubs, boys in blazes, that's absolutely fine. Top level needs to be uh monetized, needs to become an entertainment business like the NFL, needs to be big, bold, and bright, shorter seasons, um, all connected, um, a summer sport. We need to, you know, completely change the way it's marketed. The fan experience on game day needs to be to be um changed. The the footage needs to go on one central um TV programme so everyone can find it. You need spin-off shows off the back of it, you need Netflix documentary on players like like the like the quarterback thing, you know. There's rugby's complaining about letting cameras in in case you know they see a coach call someone a cunt.
SPEAKER_01:You've got Netflix have actually knocked it. Sorry, um rugby's actually knocked out.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, they didn't finally did accept it, but then you know they're now squabbling over things like you know what you can put in and what you can't put in, and you know, and they were like turning cameras off and telling people to go away, and everyone was so worried about it. You know, you need everybody wants to know what's under the bonnet, and you know, and if you actually don't let them in, they're shooting worse is going on than than actually it is. You know, you've got Patrick Mahomes, you know, who's won three Super Bowls now, he's got you've got cameras living with him for that quarterback documentary on Netflix, plus two other quarterbacks. You know, you've got uh, you know, these untold stories on Netflix, they are what is the is keeping the streaming giant alive. Everything is about looking under the bonnet, seeing what people are doing. You know, rugby's all about stay humble, don't put your head above parapets, stay, you know, be quiet. You've got negative, you know, negative written press all the time. These blokes, they're not up with social media, they're out of touch, they've been in the business for 20 years. They're just, you know, they're all good guys, but it's just it's just not what you want. You know, the first sign of anything super negative, this country's riddled with tall poppy syndrome. You know, in America, it's about championing, you know, the American dream, success, being positive, getting out of here is we'll build you up, then we'll fuck you, and then we fuck you, we'll burn your ashes and piss on them until you're gone. You know, and then everyone loves a uh you know, a redemption story. And I just I saw this thing the other day. Again, he's not a great example of because of what happened back in the day. Michael Barrymore, you know, Michael Barrymore obviously had a complete you know nightmare, you know, whatever, was Persona on grata. He's obviously got back on TikTok, he's now got a million odd followers on TikTok, super positive, super fun. Um, everyone loves him. He's a redemption story, he's kind of got back. They bring him on to GMB the other day, and they're absolutely hammering him, slurring his words, mugging him off, and it's like fucking hell. You know, just everything is so negative in this country. And rugby is particularly negative because it's out of touch, dated, irrelevant, um, you know, it's and it's always about what you can't do, what you shouldn't do, instead of like how do we make this better? And they could they just can't, no, no, no one can link up at the top of the game.
SPEAKER_03:Does the change have to will it only work if it's coming from the uh you know from the governing bodies or could or could club owners themselves, you know, kind of make make a difference?
SPEAKER_00:No, the thing is it's all you know, the club owners are all separate entities, only interested in themselves, you know, and like there's you know it's not very clear who the power brokers are in in in rugby, you know, they're trying to to change that landscape, they're trying to make things um easier and and more controlled, but now you've got 12, well, 10 10 um owners pulling in 10 different directions, 10 proud men who do what the hell they want, they have success in their own right. And that's why the England team suffers because they're not they're just not joined up. You know, the England team is trying to play one way, every club team's trying to play another way. Um, and I think you know the only thing that's positive about rugby at the moment is women's rugby, that's growing, that's developing. But you know, they need to do everything that the men have never done. And I think um, you know, I love you know, rugby's still a good game. The product on the field at times is is is brilliant. International rugby's there, but I just don't see no one can make a decision in rugby, no one can get an do anything, and and if they do it, they do it in the wrong way. And so I I just sort of kind of a bit like you're just idiots. So I, you know, I'm I was not really involved in it anymore.
SPEAKER_03:And you talk about rugby at a grassroots level. I mean, you know, do you think enough's done with in in state schools?
SPEAKER_00:Because I mean it's like it's it's like rugby doesn't play it anywhere. But again, because you've got the you've got this concussion crisis, you know, like the problem is you know, little Timmy, you know, as a parent, you know, you don't want your kid to play sport, they're gonna get hurt. No one wants to see a kid get hurt ever. But you know, it's the same thing as like boxing, it's a combat sport. Your MMA is a combat sport, rugby is a combat sport. Like you're gonna get hurt, but now they're trying to dress it up as like a uh collision avoidance sport. It's just like shut up. Like just own what it is, put more investment into health and safety and um looking after players and looking and looking how they're treating it, how they're coach as kids and everything else. But it's still a contact sport. Would I let my kids play rugby? Yeah, 100%. Is there a risk they get fucked up? Yeah, 100%. Do I, you know, I've got teammates and friends who've got dementia and and and and early onset um outside, all this kind of stuff. But you know, we knew what I was going into. I mean, I did I, you know, did I know that um, you know, did I know that it was going to be as bad? Yes. Am I a prime candidate for these things? Yeah, and will I, you know, if I suddenly get dementia or what, you know, MND or something, you know, will I change my tune? Well, not really, because I I went into it with my my eyes opened. Did I think I was looked after as well as should be no? Or are people were people making decisions on about my health and well-being that weren't qualified to do so? Yeah, that's what should change. Well, do I play too much rugby? Yeah. Did they overtrain me? Yeah. Did I do too much contact? Yes. Can you change all those things? Yes. Is it still a dangerous sport where people are gonna get knocked the fuck out? Yes. So, you know, I think once you understand that, um, you can you can make some decisions. But now what everyone's doing is just panicking and running around trying to make out that it's not what it what it is. And that for me is just mad, madness, you know, trying to pretend that it's not a physical sport and that you can't get hurt. You can't protect everyone at all times. That's the same thing boxing. People die in boxing. You know, I'm not saying people are gonna die in rugby, but you you know, you need to be you need to be smarter and you need to understand what the sport is, and kids don't play it in schools because you know, it's just not worth it. And and it's also not not a big enough sport, you know. That rugby's dated. You know, you've seen what the cricket has done with a hundred entertainment, fun, you know, music, DJs, parties, you know, that's revitalised the numbers. Um rugby just isn't doing anything about any of that, really. And it's the same thing. It's just no, no, no, don't do this, don't do this, as opposed to what we can do. Just noticed you've got normal ears. I've never have they always been like, yeah, no, I was I always wore a scrum cat, really. Um I just always did it. I don't know why. I mean, I just always had it, my ears were okay, really. I don't I wouldn't, I don't, I think I'd look and cauliflower ears would wouldn't be too bad. I've started doing jujitsu again, I started doing wrestling, I started to get one when I was doing my MMA stuff.
SPEAKER_03:But can you fit you can you can drain or something, can you?
SPEAKER_00:You can, yeah, but then they just fill back up again, and then if you don't drain them, it's it's a bit of a plava. If you if your ears start going, your ears are you know are gone, really. Um but actually mine are okay, you know. See the state of my penis, and I'm just I'm joking. Well, well, that's that's actually uh segue into my next question.
SPEAKER_03:No, I was just I was just about to talk about uh homophobia in sports. Yeah, and I mean there's a a lot uh more being talked about it in in in all in all sports now, and I think from a personal perspective, I think I think you've got a got a brother who's okay. And um, so yeah, I guess you can you can probably answer it from from both sides of the table. I mean, yeah, how how how much of a problem is it? I mean, and I guess I'm asking that more from the player's perspective.
SPEAKER_00:It's hard because you know you asked about the race, racism and and homophobia and stuff, all the things. I mean, I just didn't didn't see it right. You know, and not I'm blind to it or pretend I didn't see it. I just, you know, was you know, what was homophobic language used? Yeah, of course. But but most of homophobia became has become common parlance. But but just in bands, yeah, but I don't I don't know, I don't like well, because you know, banter's become an excuse just to be a prick to everyone. And it's like I just you know, and I I sort of perpetuated, used to joke about it, and like, you know, um someone nicknamed me the Archbishop Bantu once. We played, I just don't, I don't adhere to that because I think it's I think it's now, you know, everybody uses it, and I think, you know, I sit some of it being having a chat with the lads and having a laugh. I think homophobic language, you know, you see it with kids, oh, that's gay, this is gay. There is no nothing negative about being gay, but yet it is used as a negative word. So I think you've gotta you've got to work hard to change those things. You know, I would say that in a change room when we heard people say, you know, um neg like bad words like the you know, not the F word, but the F word in regards to homosexuality, we would stop and correct you'd go, No, no, no, we're not you don't use that. And you try to do better um and you think better. I didn't see um I mean if you'd have been gay, would you have had any would you have been happy to be? If I'd been gay, I would have fucking cashed you into the back of it. I mean, I would have come out and I would have been a shiny exact, you know what I mean? Like I think it I think if I but yeah, I mean I I don't the only way I could ever equate it is if I it's hard enough being yourself, right? It's hard enough waking up every morning and coming to terms with who you are and what you do. Imagine waking up every morning and wanting to be someone completely different and then and having to pretend you're not, and that'd be a nightmare. So I've always said I would always want any teammate to have come out and been, or not come out, but just lived their life and not had any shames. I think it's sad that we have to come out. Why what why do you have to admit you're into anything? Like I, you know. Why do you have to come out and go, I'm a home and say, I I I didn't come out and go, I'm straight. I didn't come out and go, I'm I'm into this, I'm an arse man. I fucking, you know what I mean? I just I just I just didn't you just don't come out and say that. You know, I I I I've got a you know, I've got leather fetish or whatever like I don't come out and tell them all the what the proclivities I have. And I feel sorry for people who have to do it. But we are in that world where, you know, since there's been, you know, ancient Greece, thousands of years before that, since there's been two women and two men, they've been sleeping with each other and sleeping with men. And it's been going on for fucking, you know, thousands of years since man's been around, since women's been around. And to pretend it hasn't is is bollocks, to pretend it's against uh God is bollocks, God doesn't exist. I just all this stuff is such man-made, oppressive nonsense that that are just there that to deal with stuff that people don't feel comfortable with. And I think, no, I think if gay, if I had gay teammates, would it have been a problem? Absolutely not. You know, does everybody get shit for everything? Yeah, you know, I get shit for my hairline, shit for my teeth, shit for my chat, shit for my dress sense, you know, would you have got shit for shit for being gay? Probably. Would you get, you know, d is that a bad thing? No, I I don't think so. But uh what I do as a society, we need to be better at, you know, because imagine every time you hear the word gay, it's used in a derogatory term like that's gay, this gay. You'd be like, oh, I don't want to be associated with that. And that's why you change stuff. That's why you change stuff, you know, race as well, you know, everyone is equal. You know, just because you've got a different skin tone, it doesn't, you're not better or worse anymore. Well, and the way people have been treated, people have been treated for hundreds of years, it is no good. Do we need to be better? Yes. I think in rugby we're actually really accommodating. You know, I I I keep working in corporate worlds now and speaking in corporates, and they're all trying to do this like EDI, was it a quality, diversity, inclusion? I mean, I I mean I mean I didn't, we never had to do any of that because we had if you were good enough, you're there. So with a gay straight, a person of colour, whatever, you were always in a team. I never had to learn about quality diversity. Could there have been a more women involved in rugby? Yeah, but it's a fucking it was a male dominated sport and it's a pretty ruthless environment. I'm not saying women couldn't have been there, but it just didn't naturally progress into that. You had female masseurs and female um uh sort of physios. Did you need female coaches? No, but women's rugby wasn't that wasn't that big. Do you would would women's coaches now could make crossover to to men's rugby? Yeah, 100%. But did we need more quality? No, I don't think so. Um did we need more diversity? Not really. Every team I had had specific islanders, um, South Africans, um, people from all over the world. And inclusion, we're all inclusive. It's a team sport. So I I now go into corporates where I have to be very careful of what I say because everyone's fucking tripping over themselves to try to eradicate years of oppression and everything else. I spoke at a builders' event and um I made some jokes about some stuff and it and they went down. I got some complaints and stuff because they're now trying to pretend everyone at the top of the building game, trying to pretend that you know that um that they're more inclusive and diverse. And it's like, well, I you need to tell the buildings, builders on the building site because nothing they've they've noticed. They're not getting the memo between here. I'm not saying building sites are bad, but you know, it's just funny how everybody's trying to pretend that their shit doesn't stink and they're all better than they are. Whereas a sportsman, the leveller was, were you good enough, were you a good team man? That's all that mattered. Doesn't matter where you're from, what colour you are, what your sexuality is, were you good enough, were you a good team man, were you a helping team? And that's the only way I equate things in life, and that's the only thing I see with anybody. That's what matters. I don't give a fuck what who you sleep with, what colour you are, whatever it is. If you're a good lad, a good woman, and a good person, that's all that matters. And I that's the way I base everything on.
SPEAKER_03:Do you think that's inclusion um or or or or lack of phobia was was kind of unique to rugby, or do you think it's the same across most sports and it's just it's just bullshit that's proliferated in the media or with the fans more places?
SPEAKER_00:No, football's awful because the because the because the football fans are I mean, I'm not gonna label all football fans, but you you know, when you're still getting monkey chants and stuff. Look, the problem is I I But it's a fan issue, not a player issue. Well, look, the thing is, with in rugby, I I've seen teammates come out recently and said that they felt like where there was racism and stuff like that, and people have said bad stuff to them. So with Luther Burrell being being one, I was a teammate of his, you know, if he says it happened, it happened, you know, and it's and it's bad, and he should never have been put in that position, and and you need to have a look into it. I can't comment because I'm not a person of colour and I I haven't had to deal with anything. I'm not gay, I haven't had to deal with that stuff. So I can only say my experience. Are there always bad eggs in every um, you know, in every box? Yeah. Are there bad people that do stuff in everything? Yes. Have people got it wrong in every sport? Yes. Do people in rugby get it wrong all the time? Yes, of course. Do I think it's as bad uh elsewhere? No. Do I think rugby fans, while I while I find them some of them are painful and entitled and rude and and stuff? No, I think on the most part they they would be they would be accommodating and they and the and the rugby crowds are much, you know, they don't want swearing, they don't want fighting, they don't want that. You know, I don't think they would tolerate homophobic language or racist language overly used. Does it still happen? Yes. Are the uneducated uh uh fans uh in football um still, you know, doing racist chants and throwing bananas and throwing coins and fighting and so yeah. Um, you know, do you go to some Eastern Bloc countries and they're just horrifically racist because that's culturally what they're about? Yeah, I and I think until until education around that kind of stuff changes, you know, football's not gonna have that that that you know, they're gonna have to work doubly hard because you see it all the time. But are there, you know, are probably the majority of football fans, you know, good people, yeah. But is there more bad eggs? Yes, because I think it's a lack of intelligence, a lack of education on uh on some of these subjects. And some countries are still just abundantly racist and abundantly homophobic about and you know, and and that's that's the way the world is. When you're still throwing gay people off buildings in certain Arabic countries, and you know, when you're when you're in in Malaysia, you know, that the 1975 that the the lead singer kissed his bandmate, they're getting sued for two million and had to pull the show because they went against Malaysian. How is homosexuality still fucking illegal? Well, I guarantee someone owned power brokers who put or implement the laws are gay and they're pretending they're not. And I just think the mad the world is so hypocritical and so full of nonsense that actually all you can do again is worry about what you can control. And and actually, I if I want to be I I I I don't want racist, I'm not homophobic, I can just be accommodating. If I saw stuff I didn't like, would I step in? Yeah, 100%. But I am I here to change the world and fight for it, no, because it's not my battle to fight. I can only try to change what I see, you know.
SPEAKER_03:So initiation is still a thing in rugby.
SPEAKER_00:Um yes, I mean some clubs, you know, like I think um Gloucester's probably known for more whether shave your head or you have to drink um two gallon of milk uh without spewing, but obviously I think that's m near on impossible. Is that as bad as it gets? Yeah, I mean, I didn't um the only initiation I had to, you know, sing on you had to sing on the the England team bus, sing a song. Um I mean, I you know a lot of the team team went sort of Oasis and Wonder Wall. I I went with Tenacious D, you don't have to fuck a hard, which went down really, really, really badly with um with the coaches and coaches' wives. Um and you know, because there were that says women so old, you know, some of those coaches' wives are so old, they were like the last time you saw them, they'd be advertising a walk-in bath on the TV or you know, showing a stay advertising a standard stallion. So to hear me sing a rendition of Don't Always Have to Fuck A Hard didn't go down particularly well. Um and then you have to have a drink with every member of the team, which again can get very messy. Um, I mean, I've seen Blads not make it through the starters. I mean, one particular player, you know, I think five drinks in, ran off to the toilet to spew. And as he opened the door, he puked on the president of the RFU's head, which is not an ideal scenario. So things like that go on, but I think for the most part, no, there's no kind of um hazing and stuff like that. I didn't really have anything like that apart from just people trying to make me drink and get fucked up really. There's not really anything else apart from that.
SPEAKER_03:Can you give us a couple of lines of fucking hard?
SPEAKER_00:No, I don't this is a song for the ladies fellas close. You don't always have to fuck her hard. In fact, sometimes that's not right to do. Sometimes you gotta make some love and fucking give us some smoochies too. Sometimes you've got to squeeze. Right, that's enough for you.
SPEAKER_03:Uh it's funny. Uh I I only heard that song for the first time like three or four years ago, and every time every time we get pissed, you you you you've got to put it on, but no, it's it's really good fun.
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SPEAKER_03:So when you were a child, you were diagnosed with ADHD. Yeah. Uh, I mean, it's something we hear a lot about nowadays, and even on this podcast, I mean I've probably had you know four or five guests I can remember who've who've been diagnosed with it. Tends to be more, uh, I seem to come across it more with creative type people. So, you know, certainly very few, if any, any any athletes. I mean, and and I guess the people I talk to talk about um using the create using it to go through their creative channels, etc. I mean, how how do you think it's affected you and and how did it feel as a kid? Because I mean, I guess 30 years ago to be dieted nowadays, everyone's got ADHD, everyone's got anxiety, it's you know, do they really have it?
SPEAKER_00:So that's the problem. Yeah, I I have a very I mean this is a dangerous subject, but I I I think I think in 2023 we are diagnosed everything has some, but everything has something. Sorry, everybody has something. You can't just go through the the wealth of human emotions without being labelled. So everybody has a bad day. Everybody wakes up going, what the fuck am I doing? Why am I here? I don't like my life, I want this, I don't want that. Is that depression? No. Everybody, you know, at a time will get nervous. Do people like me? Do you think people will want to speak to me? What must I go to this party and no one I don't see it? It's not social anxiety, it's normal human emotion. We've now got to the point where we're protecting ourselves against emotions. So everyone's everything's got a trigger warning. So if you talk about suicide in the news, it becomes a trigger warning. Why do you have a trigger warning? You you're not meant to like it, you're not you're meant to go. That's awful. You can't protect yourself against having those emotions. If you don't like a program, they have to censor it now. This has got contains this, got contains like you're meant to experience human emotions, right? And we're now trying to protect ourselves against all these emotions. And we're labelling everything. Someone can't just have a bad day, someone can't be overhappy, someone can't be a bit scatty, someone can't be a bit disorganized without having, you know, having that. I, you know, you have to ask my my my mum and dad better than I do, but I think they exhausted every possible avenue to make me sit and concentrate and work harder there. I remember them taking me to multiple people. I remember even there was this people that had these little paint this little paintbrush, I think it was down to century stuff that would brush certain parts of your face to try. I remember doing all this shit just to get me to concentrate and work. My parents, all they ever wanted to do, which you do with any of your kids, is just to help them be successful. And I remember them taking me to see a psychologist. I must have, I was like 11 or 10 or 11. Lovely Indian lady at this clinic in Berkshire, and she diagnosed me as having ADD, right? Attention deficit without hyperactive disorder. Didn't have that. And I had it, and I basically put me on Ritalin. I took it, um, I took it till the age of 16 when um I went to, I was in the England squad, sorry, 17, I was in the um England under 18 squad. The doctors asked me, Are you taking any medication? And I went that and they were like, Fucking hell, you can't be taking that. Um, you know, it's a like it's an illegal substance. So I ended up.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, is it actually a prohibiting?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so it's like because it'd be a performance-enhancing drug, I think, essentially. And they were like, You you can't take that. So I then missed a game, and all my teammates at the time, because I had to pull out the game, they all thought it was because I was on steroids, because I used it because I was big, because I was training all the time, and in health fitness, again, other lads weren't putting the work in and they looked like you know bags of shit, and and they then wanted to think I was on steroids or whatever. No, it was because I was on this medication. I had to wait uh a week and a half or what two weeks, whatever, to be out of my system. But everyone thought it was because I was on steroids, which kind of perpetuated the room that followed me around my career. Um, well, not properly, but with just with certain people. Um, and so I had that. I I I have I've it's never defined, I've never talked about it. I some guy, the independent the other day, or someone heard that I'd said I'd got it, and um interviewed me about it, and people were writing to me all the time, and I'm like, it's fine. Yeah, I mean, it's good that people to go, wow, he's got it. So mate, it's had fuck all to do with anything that I that I've done. And I think I don't believe if I meet one more person your ma'am said it, everyone's got it. I must meet people, everyone, not everyone can have fucking ADHD. You're either, you're either just a bit disorganized, a bit scatty, you know, you walk into a room and forget what you're doing, you can't concentrate. I think that's a pretty much a normal human trait, plus everyone's on their phones the whole time, plus, you know, no one can concentrate anyway. Life's full of fucking choice all the time. So you're always you know losing your mind. Does it has it allowed me, or has my brain allowed me to pursue eight different careers in one go and you know, um start projects and live with chaos and do everything? Yeah. Does it mean that I'm a you know uh a bit all over the place? Yeah, but I I'm also organized, you know. I I don't so it's never it's never held me back, it's never defined me. I don't really don't think it's got anything to do with how I am. But but make but my wife then says, she goes, Well, you're you're you're you know, you're deluded. It you know, of course you've got it, course you've got high pride, court, you can't sit down, you can't sit still, you can't, you can't, you know, you start something, you walk off and come back. But man, I just don't, yeah. I just don't, I've never because I walk saw a psychologist since I was 17.
SPEAKER_01:You haven't seen one.
SPEAKER_00:I know I had, I did, I did, I did. I saw a psychologist since I was 17 till last week. I'm 38. Because your mind is the most powerful tool to work on. You know, everybody, if I said you could run faster by wearing a pair buying a pair of trainings, you go and buy them. If I said you could change your whole life, your sleep, success, mentality, the way you deal with everything by speaking to a psychologist, most people wouldn't do it. And don't don't do it. And so I'm like, why? Your brain's the most powerful tool. So you would rather fuck around with the periphery when your brain is probably 60%, 70% of everything you do, you don't do it. So why you why are you why doing yoga and deep breathing and fucking. But why don't people do it? Is it because of embarrassment? Almost embarrassment about message. Because everyone thinks you've got to lie on a chaise long and sit there crying and talking about how you know how much your parents fucked you up. It's not about that. It's the mentality has to switch. It's like if you look after your body and eat well and you worry about what you put into it, it's the same thing with your brain. Your brain is a is a giant tool that controls every single thing you do, which relates to everything else you do. And it's the big and if you are not speaking to someone and getting tools, just as you would get tools to change your body or change your fix your car, or you are not getting tools that you can go back and revisit to deal with emotions, negative thoughts, um, you know, comp competitive anger, whatever it is, you're a fucking idiot. Because you you could, and I don't think you realise just how much of a margin for of success and improvement there is. If you already had those tools, you'd be doing it, and you can't be. That's why with people with depression, anxiety, and all this stuff, unless you're working on it, that never goes away. So if you've got if you've got anxiety disorder or depression or you've actually got it, you're never gonna go, it's never gonna go away. And what you learn through around and around mental health in general is mental health is is is not about curing because you never cured for mental health. What you do is you learn tools that when you have bad moments get you back on track. So when you first start, it might take you weeks, months to get over an episode. But if you practice the tools, it'll take you seconds or days or or hours to get back on track. And it's how you get back on track out of those moves. And it's the same thing. If you're angry, motherfucker, how do you stop flipping your lid? Well, it might you might do it straight away, but if you work on the tools and I mean it might you've got to shop around and find it could be hypnotherapist, psychotherapist, psychologist, psychiatrist, whatever it is, whatever clicks with you, you then have to find that's mental health. And I and so, you know, my ADHD stuff, I always worked as a psychologist. I always went and addressed it. I've got tools, you know. If I start getting out of hand or disorganized or feeling sorry for myself or sad or angry or whatever, I am able to go, you know, this is what I'm doing. And I and I and that's what I'm I'm very surprised about. Most of my teammates never did, you know.
SPEAKER_03:After you finished playing rugby and it wasn't an issue with the drugs, did you ever go back to the drugs or did you never do that?
SPEAKER_00:No, never, no, I didn't. I mean, I no, I didn't. I I basically I stopped at 16. But I think the weird thing with the the the the Ritalin, I can't remember, because there's loads of bad press about Ritalin and, you know, in America and stuff. I I just think it taught me to, I felt like it taught me to concentrate. I didn't notice it. I mean, again, because I'm in my own head, I can't tell you. I did, I wasn't like, you know, I wasn't any less me, I wasn't any less talkative, but I just felt I was able to sit down and concentrate and that it maybe it made me able to focus. And because of that, it's almost like um it developed, it made me work now. So if I if I need to sit and work and do something and I get my phone out of my way, I can sit for hours and work and not, you know, and I wouldn't even eat something when I've been editing books, just sat there for eight or nine hours, just work, and that's not a problem. And that's what it taught me to do because I couldn't do that before. I don't know how it did it or what what it did, but it certainly just made me sit and focus. Um, and that's why I've I'm able to do all the different stuff I am, because I can sit and work, and if I block my days off, I have to split my days into you know certain uh categories. So if I wake up, I'll do the first in an hour, would just be emails. Won't pick up my phone. Then I'll go onto social media, but I'll just do it in sections. I can't do emails, social media, phone calls. Um, I have to split it all up because otherwise I'll become too distracted. But I learned that as a tool, you know.
SPEAKER_03:What was that feeling for you when you got that contract side with wasps? I mean, what was it like a was it a wow, was it a kind of a vindication for the work, or you know, do you not even think about it because you could still fail tomorrow?
SPEAKER_00:I I think the thing for me is I don't deal in regrets really, but I think one thing that I wish I had done more of was enjoying the moment. I was always on to the next thing. So, you know, you get a contract, yeah, but I want to get in the team, yeah, but I want to play. And then it's never, it's never kind of appreciating, you know, you'd win a you'd win a game and you'd go, well, yeah, but I didn't make these tackles and I need to work on this, and I wasn't comforted comfortable with that. And you always want more. So in retirement, I was kind of aware of that mentality. So when my first um uh house music track got played on KISS FM, bought a bottle of champagne, sat, celebrated, looked at it, went, fucking hell, that's you know, that's a moment for me. You know, that's good because I'd learnt that I hadn't celebrated those moments, and you know, one minute I was 17, signing my first contract, and then I was 35, and I was like, where the hell did that time go? I obviously enjoyed it, had a mad adventure, and I was very good at it, but I didn't probably celebrate as much or appreciate what I was doing, and that was my recipe for success, you know, being so keen to improve, you know, training when others weren't training, training on days off, training straight after a game, doing all the things that I did that that led to my level of success were my recipe. But unfortunately, if you don't address the driving factors behind it, it can be your undoing. You know, you always see it with super elite sports or business people, they have a way of doing things, but sometimes that can be detrimental. Never celebrating, never celebrating, always moving on to the next thing and never appreciating what you've got. At some point that's going to come and bite you in the ass. The checks in the post. So I then had to go look what's important, you know, because if you always want more and you're never happy, which I wasn't, well, I'm sorry, I'm happy, but I mean I was never happy with what I was doing on the rugby field, that's nowhere to be. So, but it got me to where I was. But a later life you have to address it, otherwise you you never find fulfillment. You know, you've got a watch, you've got a car, you've got a house, you've got money, you've got, you know, adventures, you've got holiday, you've got family. But you want more, you want more. What there's never enough on anything. There's never enough money, never enough women, never enough fucking food, there's never enough, and there's never enough cars, watches, houses, anything. So you have to go, what do I enjoy? And you have to analyse that. And I looked into what I enjoyed, and for me it was emotional experiences and moments, and actually celebrating the little wins, you know, and only being in competition with myself. Because I think if you look over the fence at other people, you're always gonna find someone doing better than you. You know, just go to the Monaco Grand Prix and stand outside that um uh the what that casino, whatever it is, Monte Carlo. Yeah, wherever it is, and you go, you see a Ferrari, like wow, and then you see a Lamborghini, you see, wow, then you see a Bigatti, and then you see a Bigatti welded to a Lamborghini, and then some kinds of a yacht with a Lamborghini, and you're like, mate, you're never gonna win. So just worry about what you got.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I so I I live in Dubai, as I was telling you earlier, and I've been there for kind of two or three years now. And I mean, obviously it obviously takes the the right kind of mindset for you individually to be able to get inspired by those things. But I always say one of the best things about being in Dubai is that it shows you how utterly skint you are. Yes, because I've got a boat in Dubai, I've got a penthouse apartment in Dubai, but I'm I'm I'm still I feel like a cleaner for you know for all for all the guys uh you know like Maud's uh.
SPEAKER_00:Just look at the guy like the Saudi Arabians, you know, to sign, you know, they're building that that line or whatever it's called for for you know trillion dollars that you know they're paying Neymar 138 million dollars a year. It doesn't even touch the sides, you know. You know, remember you watch these those programs like the rainbow shakes. He had a f he had a he had a Ferrari in every colour of the rainbow, and he could smash them up and he wouldn't even notice, you know. If he dropped 50 pound note, by the time he bent over, it wouldn't be worth him picking it up. And that's the level, you know, you just can't compete with that.
SPEAKER_03:I think you you've got to make a decision, you know, do you want to be that big fish in that small pond where ultimately you know it's it's a little bit of success that's kind of almost dangerous because it it you know it gives you that ceiling and you and you you know you're never going to achieve more, or do you want to admit or or accept that you've got so much to learn or you've got so much to earn or whatever it is and and and go and and go and go and surround yourself by those people? So for me, being in Dubai, being surrounded by people with so much more money than me, with so much more you know success in whatever particular field it is, you know, it it's just so dr you know, so driving and inspiring.
SPEAKER_00:Do you know what I know? I I mean I I I I don't disagree with you. I find it um especially in the music industry, I f I find I I always I look at others for uh motivational check-in, and there's always somebody doing what you want to do better than you, and I think to look into it, but I also um I kind of look at it now, what makes me happy, what would be happy, you know. And um I I was talking to um uh a therapist not long ago about this, and he said, Are you running away from something or running towards something? And I said, Well, probably most of my time running away from something. Um, because he goes, What do you want your life to look like? And so if you've got a boat and you've got a penthouse apartment, you've got this stuff, you know, and you say you've got a house elsewhere, if you were to add all that up and ask what that costs per year, there'll be a number to that. If I look at what I want, um, you know, I if you work out what you want, it's actually not it's much more attainable than you think it is. You know, for some people, you know, I mean, if I wanted a house in every country in the world and a super yacht and everything like that, you're talking a lot of cash. But if I went, you know, I've got a house in London, um, I've got a house in Cannes, I want um, you know, I want a nice car, I want to be able to go out. Uh we basically sat and I worked out what that figure would be. And it actually wasn't as much as you'd think it was, and it suddenly became much more attainable. And I I I I sort of look at I I don't like comparing myself to other people too much, or or I look for, as I said, for inspiration, but I also find you can lose yourself down a rabbit, you can rabbit hole. And it's like actually what what matters? And I've realized now, you know, I had you know, I had a Ferrari, I've had a fucking all this stuff, watch it. I just wear my Apple Watch, I don't fucking care about cars. I like cars, you know, but I don't, it's not the bill on the end or I kind of much would rather go for a nice meal, drink what I wanted, eat what I wanted, and a nice location with good people and have a laugh, had fun. That's what I valued over kind of material, material things, you know.
SPEAKER_03:A friend of mine, actually, a guy I met on this podcast years ago, who's become a very good friend. His expression, which it always stuck with me, is if you can't be happy without money, yeah, you'll never be happy with money. This is true. And then, you know, I guess you know, we've got various, you know, legs to the spider of this conversation, but it all comes back to the same thing.
SPEAKER_00:The therapist said that he um he had a very, very because he works with kind of you know super successful um people. He said that um this guy had this, you know, always traveling, always working, always wanting more, always pushing, pushing the boundaries. And he said that the um his housekeeper called him and she said, Thanks so much for letting me have the the house um for the weekend. I'm sitting in your infinity pool, I really appreciate you the best employer. And he's in a hotel room and he's like, How the fuck is my housekeeper in my infinity pool in my incredible house? And I'm on, I'm I'm in a hotel away from my family. Something's the balance has gone wrong here because he's always pursuing more. Whereas he actually had all he wanted or what he needed, but he was still pursuing it and had lost the plot. And I think for me, while I would, you know, while I would want more money and want more success, and I think I think the only reason we're put on this earth, because actually when you break it down, is we're we're we're we're born, we work, and we die, and we're meant to procreate, and we've created all these distractions and all these reasons to make the journey much more palatable. I believe that with that you need purpose and discipline and direction, and there's only three, four things you can control. How you treat your body, so you're given a fantastic machine of a body. If you and some of us are blessed with more potential than others, so you should always maximise it, whatever that looks like. So always stay healthy, always always utilize it in some way, whether that's walking the dog or playing elite sport or everything in between, use it. Don't don't waste it, because once you waste it, you fuck it, you ain't gonna get it back. And we see it all the time. Your mind, you know, how much you use your mind, you know, your mind's such a powerful tool. Even if you're not that bright, there are things and avenues and things that you can do to expand your horizons, learn, have fun, challenge yourself, interest, engage. That's what you can control. How you treat people is um another one. You know, it's much harder to be a dickhead than it is to be nice. You get a choice every time you meet someone, how you treat them. Always. There's no way there's no one makes you act like the way you are. There's no reason to act like, even if you know you were diddled as a kid, there's no reason to be a prick, right? So you so that's the thing, and and and how hard you work. And I think I think with with that mindset, I always want to keep pushing forward and moving forward. Uh, you know, you never see me sitting in a hot hippie commune smoking weed and talking shit. I always have to do something, I always want to broaden my horizons, I always want success, and and a payment for success is money. Um, and I will never stop working for that. But I do, as I said, where we where we start this conversation is is actually sitting back and appreciating what you what you do have. Because, but then also, you know, especially with an advent of social media, there's always somebody doing better than you. And if you look at it, sometimes it's so off-putting and so kind of like, why do I even bother? I'm never gonna get there. And sometimes it you you can't see how you're gonna achieve what you want. And so what I do is I just put my head down and go, right, here's where I want to get to. What's some what's a tangible milestone? Let's see how we go and do it and tick it off. And that for me is probably the most important factor about all of it.
SPEAKER_03:You know, after nearly four years of doing this podcast, I think I've got my favourite quote ever now, which is even if you've been diddled as a kid, there's no reason there's no reason to be dick out.
SPEAKER_00:But the thing is, I think the thing is uh the reason I said I'm and I'm not sort of being flippant about kind of abuse, but you know, in anything in life, there's always a reason why you why you're limited. And and I think you you can always become defined by stuff that's happened to you and use it as an excuse as to why you can't achieve. You know, you look at we live in a very much an excuse-based culture now. You know, everything is always somebody else's fault, it's the government's fault, it's COVID's fault, it's you know, your parents' fault, it's your fault, it's body's fault. It's always somebody else's fault. And now we're told, we're now teaching kids that being mediocre, being average is fine, just turning up's fine, that if you're you know that each person's a unique little fucking unicorn and they can do what they want to do, um, and everyone can achieve everything, and impossible's nothing. It's bollocks. It's absolutely bollocks. Like life's unfair, life's shit. Um, good stuff happens to awful people, um, amazing stuff happens to great people, you know, not a diversion of you know, the division of talent, ability, um, success, who your parents are, start in life. It's all unfair. And you and you and you have to fight like tooth and nail to get out of it. Some people can never get out of it. It's easy for me to say as a white middle class boat who hasn't really had a lot of problems, but you the mentality still stands, and you see it all the time. You see people with the worst backgrounds or the worst excuses, the worst things, achieve the best because they have that desire to put in and make a change, and they're not defined by excuses. And life is all about fighting. And if you teach kids, you know, sport isn't competitive, you're an idiot. If you try to tell people that life's not about a fight, you're a fucking moron. And you know, people, you know, people say, Well, it's just about fun. It's like, no, it's not. Nothing in life is is comes without hard work. And actually, you got you know, I think people have to suffer, and there's no such thing as being super comfortable. And and I I get quite passionate about it because I see it all the time, and everyone's always blaming somebody else. And so I think you know, we always got that friend who's there's always a reason why life is shit. And it's like, look, babe, at the end of the day, it's your life, it ain't dress rehearsal, it ain't you know, if you don't want to make a difference, then you're gonna be born, have whatever you do, and then you're gonna die, and you're not gonna leave any mark or do anything, and it's gonna be healthy, or you can try to fight like fuck to get out of it, you know.
SPEAKER_03:So we talked a bit earlier about um success and money and what that does, what that means to you, and that yeah, we we probably over egg what we actually need. Talk to me about money during your career, and you know, did you um we were you sensible with it? Did you make investments? How did you take advice?
SPEAKER_00:So I, you know, so I was actually um I was playing for England, I was the lowest paid um player in the England team for for a couple of years because um WAS were just always used to underpay people because you you if you played for them, you were much more likely to win some trophies and they knew that, and they weren't great payers at the best of times. You know, I always got financial advice. My dad was great at setting stuff up, so I had a pension, I had um savings, um, I have some investments, you know, across sort of a wide range of different things. I've got some stuff with I always say every time I say this in St. James's wealth management, everyone's the fees, the fees, but they've been brilliant, looked after me really well. Um, and so yeah, I was sensible with stuff. You know, I I couldn't buy property for for a period of time because I never knew which country I was going to be in long enough to to buy anything. Um, and a lot of my money was kind of tied up in in business and stuff like that. Um what business? Well, so I had so I mean I've had so many. I mean I used to have a fitness, I had a fitness business and a fitness website and a supplement range that we we used to we used to do. Uh I owned F-45 gyms. We did stuff along those lines. Um I've written six books. Um, three of them were health and fitness, um, that we used to kind of kind of sell. You know, we used to do um at events at a corporate shooting business. So, you know, we'd get we so I've had lots of these things that some have gone really well, some haven't. Some of them I've moved away from due to interest. You know, kind of ended up having setting up different businesses. And you know, did my dad get all of it right? No, no, not at all. You know, did I lose a lot of money doing things and trying stuff? Yeah, am I in a position, a good position now? Do I have um stuff taken care of like as I said, like pensions and savings and ICEs and stuff? Yeah, I do. I did all, I use all the vehicles that were to my to my. Disposal um because of losing money in some some some of these businesses and bits and pieces I won't go into now. I I'm kind of more risk averse because I don't, you know, I think um you know anything that goes up can come down, and the more risk you take, the more likely you are to to to get fucked. And there's been some stuff that have come off, and there's been some stuff that have just gone gone awful, really, turned you know lots of money into no money, really.
SPEAKER_03:What what gives you your risk aversion now? Is it the fact that you've you've had losses and and that scarred you, or is it maybe because um you you know you haven't got that consistent income from the old days where you can keep taking chances?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I think to both things. I think really a lot of the risk was was taken on my behalf by my dad, but I wasn't always necessarily I was quite, you know, when I for a long period of time, I kind of just put everything onto him because I again I was not that particularly organised, I was just interested in rugby. And um, you know, I I think uh there's things that that I I wouldn't have done that he did. Some, as I said, have come off, some you know, lots of stuff haven't. So I'm now in a position where it took me a long time to get back control of my own financial situation, and so because of that, um I don't want to um to be overly risky. I think also uh, you know, I am always one comment and one podcast away from getting cancelled and not getting paid, and all my money is public facing. I don't have any other skills, I've got no qualifications apart from a license to drive a 10 tonne and above 360 excavator, and um I'm gonna do I've got Bristol, I can't do any else. So, you know, if I get myself cancelled, there isn't a lot I can do. DJing, you know, is probably a bit more accommodating, but even then it's it's hard. So I just you know I know how limited making money is. I don't have any long-term businesses at the moment. I mean, we actually just launched a gin, a gin business, um, GIN called Black Eye, which we partner with the guys who are running that run Dana White's um howlerhead, and we're launch, relaunching that in um in for the World Cup, and that's something that we're hoping to go to go massive. Um, and every pound from the bottle sold goes to a uh an independently run players fund to help sort of research, um, kind of recover and and mitigate risk for players. So we you know we reckon if things sell as we want them to, you know, we'll have a pot of over a million quid to sort of decide with players who've got dementia injury, how do we how do we help them? So that's gonna be really big. And we want to kind of encourage rugby fans to swap a you know a beer for a gin and tonic. Um and it's an amazing gin. It's a what it's an award-winning gin in in the bottle. So that's interesting, you know, if that works well and we have an exit in five, five, six years, you know, that'll that'll change the game. But mostly I don't have a a business where I can make the fuck you money that we should need to. So everything is required. And if I don't work, I don't earn, and that so means I I have to travel to to speaking uh at corporate events and DJ and do you know work with um work with brands? And the problem is, you know, I'm outspoken and but not intentionally, but I just have an opinion, and you know, everybody wants to pretend that they stand for so much stuff when they don't, they just want to stand for good PR, and and I unfortunately not don't always bring good PR with me, you know.
SPEAKER_03:Is there a particular reason you chose that charity, by the way?
SPEAKER_00:No, we set it up, we're setting it up ourselves. So it's ours, R. So I I basically work, I'm a trustee of a charity called Restart, which um helps players um, you know, sort of uh restart their careers, deal with catastrophic injury like broken necks, or um they can apply to them for funds to study or for injury or for surgery, whatever it is. Um we have an option now to set up something independent outside of that, which with a bigger pool of money, which basically doesn't have to adhere to any governing bodies, it's a global fund, and we just think it's a nice legacy that even whoever buys the, you know, so so Perna Ricardo or whatever buys the gin or or Diaggio, they would have to keep that going. So so we can help just because you know we basically want we're doing it for the game, really. That's the that's the that's the brand motto, it's for the game. If you want to keep enjoying rugby, you know, you're gonna have to keep looking after the players and funding them, and nobody else really does that. Governing bodies don't do it. Restart does it, but even then that's limited by the you know the funds it has coming through the door through um charity. You know, if we if we can make this gene a a massive success, then money will come in to to help those players and we can decide what we do with it.
SPEAKER_03:And when you say we, is that you and your dad still?
SPEAKER_00:No, it's me, no, it's my dad and I don't work stuck together anymore.
SPEAKER_03:Does that cause an issue with your no?
SPEAKER_00:I think I think all that kind of stuff is is very hard with um your for your parents, you know, Fanny. Would I ever with my daughter, you know, if she was to be a um uh a sports star or whatever, or would I manage her? No. My dad managed me for for a bit, I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that. Would I sit with a manager? Would I talk and be and go, right, listen, I'm putting your expertise, would I have an opinion? Yes, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't do it. My my dad did it um because you know, parents want you want your parents to be your parents, you don't want your parents to be a manager now, and would I work with family? No, I wouldn't do that. You know, it caused a lot of stress, a lot of a lot of emotion, and it and it, you know, just didn't need to be that way. So um I know my dad and I don't work together anymore. I I this is through Mike Tyndall, um, Alex Payne, um, the guys I do the Good Bad Rugby podcast with. And this is um, and I said the guys who a company called Catalyst, a guy called Simon Hunt, who um who's but basically launched um Dana White's howlerhead um in the UFC. So, you know, it's a very different professional kind of um entity. And as I said, I just working with friends and family, mate, it's a fucking recipe for disaster. So I just wouldn't do it. I just it never goes well, and even if even if it does go brilliantly, there's always a strain because you, you know, especially with parents, because you do different generations, you do things very differently.
SPEAKER_03:I think I mean I I always say you you can argue it both ways. If the mistake comes by picking so doing business because someone is a friend. Yes. No, it's not it's not that our friend friends and business don't mix, it's that the you know, the wrong friends doesn't where it's like, I don't know, if you're if I'm your mate and you pick me to be on your rugby team, I'm gonna fuck it up. Not because we're friends, just because I can't play a rugby.
SPEAKER_00:But also think if you put your per I think if you make you set your parameters out clearly, you know, like if I was to do work with a friend, you know, you gotta get a document and go, right, here's what we're agreeing to, here's what we said, get it done first. Because you know, I saw it with a business, another business involved, and I I sat down day one, and I said, if we don't sort the you know the finance now, how it is, I said, money, money change everything, male ego change everything. You know, don't you know if you don't set it out now, there'll be arguments. No, no, no, we're not like that. You know, we're kind of people anyway. Lo and behold, seven months later, dynamics completely changed. They believe they're you know that their their shit don't stink and they're the best thing since life's bread. And it's like I sat in a meet and said, I fucking told you a lot. I said this was gonna happen if you don't do it. I've done this too many times with too many people, with too many companies. I've seen it firsthand. Always get it set out, get it very clear from the start. Do not go into anything or start anything until you've thought how you're gonna make money out of it and whether you can clearly define what the rules are and what's everyone's role is. Because if people don't know what their roles are, ego and everything gets in the way, and um it c money clouds everything. Because you know, that's why I'm always interested with socialists and and everything else. You know, people are always keen to give away money that they don't have. They always want to, they always want to, you see someone with a load of money, they always want it, and they always want to say you should give your money away, you should get taxed on this high rate. You know, wait until you earn that money and see how clever you are, see whether you'd give it all away to everyone. That's why I saw all these demonstrations with the Ukrainian referengees. Obviously, it's an awful situation there, but I saw these pro people protesting in London going, you know, we should house Ukrainians, we should house Ukrainians. And the bloke went and asked 50 or 60 of the protest of the people on the on the march, would you take someone in? They go, uh no, I can't because I rent. Next one. Could you take someone? Oh, I just haven't got the room. And they went through and it went on about 56 hundred people. Not one of them would take it. And I was like, Well, if you're not gonna do it, who the fuck is gonna do it? And it's all it's always it's always somebody else should do what you're not prepared to do, yet you've you're vocal to do it. Unless you're gonna do it yourself, shut up. Because otherwise, what's the what's the point? You know, if you unless you're happy to give away all your money, stop asking other people to give away all theirs money just because you haven't got any. It's mate, it's mad. The world's fucking insane.
SPEAKER_03:Have you just got the one kid, the one year old? One kid, yeah. I didn't know if you had an older one. No, no, no. That you're about to get it.
SPEAKER_00:I'm late to I was late to kids, actually. I was never that asked about having kids, truthfully. I um my wife and I talked about it. I'm very selfish. Um I think because oh, you know, I I kind of think everything about everything I've just said, you have to be selfish. You know, I've kind of always just gone, right, this is what I want to do and this is how I want to do it. And kids, you know, I saw kids, you know, we once we didn't have kids, people would come up to us and say, kids is the hardest thing, don't do it. Um wait, um, or it's the greatest thing ever, and it was and and they found their reason for living. I'm quite matter-of fact, so I there was no hole in my life. I didn't think kids were gonna fix our relationship. So I so we just well, you know, we're waiting, and then we we decided to do it because I think my wife would be an amazing mum. I think this you know, all the excuses for why we're here, it is the sole reason we're on this earth is to procreate like bacteria, and we and we um we had a daughter, and she is amazing. She's taught me to love in a completely different way. She's taught me about a primal love that I didn't know existed. Um, she's also given me a lot of fear um about you know her safety and what do I do when I'd be a better man. And there's a lot of, you know, every time I look at her and every time I'm away, you're like, should I be doing more? So all the things I knew that were going to happen have happened.
SPEAKER_03:Um but it's it changed, changed how how you behave. I mean, obviously, yes, it's taught you a new kind of love and stuff, but do you behave differently as an individual or um it's part of your life now?
SPEAKER_00:I know it's just part of my life. Look, I think from what I've seen, and the best piece of advice people have ever given me about kids, and everyone's always full of advice around kids, was make them fit into your life. You know, like I I want to be better for her. I want to make sure that I don't, that I protect her and that I give her every opportunity and that she's safe. And um, but also, you know, I don't want her, I want her to understand that I'm as I'm as limited. Because, you know, there's always that moment where you you wake up one day and you find out your parents aren't who you thought they were and they're not as good as you think they are. Every person happens. Some people are let down from birth, and some people it takes them a long time to go, oh God, maybe my parents are just as flawed as everybody else. They're not as perfect as I thought they were. And I just want to make sure that I'm I try to be the best version of myself for her, I try to be successful and protect her. Um, but also I'm limited, you know, I never want to pretend I'm not. Um, and I think but there's also a lot of that fear now. Like I'm we're going into this crazy world. I'm like, I don't, you know, I don't know what's going to happen with the social media and schools and everything else like that. Because when I was at school, you know, bull, we didn't have phones. If you got bullied at school, it stopped when you close the school gates. Now everyone's photographing, filming, everything lasts forever. You make one mistake, you fucked. Um, and so it's a very, very odd world out there. And then, you know, bad things happen all the time. So it's so I I basically just got my life under control myself, and now I brought something into it. Now I've now got to spend the next, well, well, the entirety of her life, entirety of my life, worrying about her, you know. And so it's that's why I sort of waited a little bit. Um, but it's definitely worthwhile. It's the it's the it's the best thing ever. And I I get very excited about um seeing her, and she's just the cutest little thing in the world. Um, but it is again a whole load of a whole load of nightmare that you brought into your life. You know, it's hard enough looking after yourself, let alone this little thing that can't look after herself, you know. So um you're married to Chloe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Uh what's it like Evan Richard and Judy's in-laws?
SPEAKER_00:Great, they're great. You know, they're they're really nice, super supportive, really kind people. Um, I can't fault them really. I I think um they're great big fans of mine. Um, you know, I think uh kind of the I still I never forget who they are and what they've done, their legacy just because how successful they are and just how well they are. But they're yeah, they're brilliant people.
SPEAKER_03:And your podcast host, Mikey, he's got he's got some interesting in-laws as well. Yeah, two of them.
SPEAKER_00:Do you ever go royal parties with him? I have, yeah. I've been to two royal weddings. I've been to um Mike and Zara's and and Harry and Megan's. Um, I knew Harry previous that to rugby. He's a mate of mine, he's a great guy. Um, yeah, I mean, I I sort of all these people are huge, normal people, really, and you know, and they're just obviously where they're born and how they're born, they you know, they they they don't they aren't any different, they're all good lads. Tins is great. Zara's one of the best people I I've met. Um and she's they're ruthy brilliant. You know, and I was very privileged to be around them and to see what it was see what life's like and and go to certain events. I mean, they don't get me too close because you can't have someone like me infiltrating too far in, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03:I've met Mike a few times at uh golf events, yeah. Golf events, actually, yeah. I mean, how how do you feel for Howry about the uh as in uh Prince Harry about the media intrusion he gets?
SPEAKER_00:Uh look, I I think um I I I was very vocal at when he wrote his book about look, uh I, you know, whether the validity of what he's saying is right or wrong, should someone be able to t to tell an unfiltered version of their story, according to them? Yeah, 100%. You know, every time I do an interview, you know, how this podcast is edited and how you use the clips and everything else like that, it's completely out of my control. You know, you could take stuff I said out of context and make it sound like I said certain things if that's what you were inclined to do. When every time I get do an interview with someone, written press, they take my words and interpret them. You know, writing a book from your own point of view and saying how you want to say what you said is is is the way you, you know, the way you do it. And I think he he had a lot of things to say and was told a lot of time he couldn't say them, and he and I I always champion people being able to say it. I think um, you know, it does sometimes making more fuss and trying to extricate yourself lead to more media? Yeah. Do I think people have a vendor against him? Yeah, you know, I think he's a you know, he's you know him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think he's you know, I think he's a great dad, a great, great, um, a great uh, you know, he's a good partner, and he and he's just trying to do his best. And and I I wish him the best of luck. I've got nothing, I've got no negative words to say about him. He's always been really lovely to me, really supportive. Um, so yeah, I've got I think he's a great, great guy.
SPEAKER_03:I want to talk about mentorship and advice because um, you know, I I I always say that for me this podcast is you know, it's a it's a fun chat, it's an organic chat, you know, with with with interesting guests from all from all walks of life, but you know that ultimately everybody can learn something from somebody. And you know, we've we've all got stories to shell, uh stories to share, yeah, and and and advice to give. And I guess you know, particularly in sport, you must have had some particularly great mentors, mentors over the time. Any any particularly good coach, mentor, and didn't you did you mentor any players or did any players mentor you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, look, I I um I mean I work with every top coach in the game. I'd say Michael Checker, Jamie Joseph, um and Eddie Jones all stand out as as some of the best coaches, and Sean Edwards are some of the best coaches I've I've worked with. For any particular reason? Uh I think um, you know, Jamie Joseph, because um he was a kind, considered man, very intelligent, who who understood um kind of the the use of words, the power, the power of emotive, words of description of of clever pre-game psychology. Um Michael Checker, because he was a hard man who you know got the best out of me and knew what knew what I needed to do, and kind of, you know, in a complicated world of over talk, basically just you know explained um you know how I could physically get the best out of myself and that physical mentality. And Eddie Jones, because again, he he treated me with respect, wound me up, put me in the right, in the right direction, and I think understood how to get the best out of me, whereas every other in the coach had sort of failed by being kind of quite just uh, you know, just not seeing that I would have done everything and seeing me and seeing my character and personality as a benefit as opposed to as a negative. Sean Edwards, again, because he, you know, he he is such an emotional guy, such a passionate guy, he he kind of turned me into uh, you know, through heart, like didn't always get it right on the way to talk to me because I don't think he necessarily knew that I wasn't as confident as I should be, but kind of really taught me to be um you know a physical player that um you know was relentless and um he he you know he loved my my my mentality and those guys I think were all very good. Um yeah, players-wise, I think um Lawrence DeLalio, um Joe Worsley, guys like that were really important to me in my career. Um, you know, I then I I didn't necessarily I would seek help from other players who didn't necessarily know they were mentoring me, but I would I would go and push them to give me advice and stuff. And I think um, you know, there's as I said, there's always somebody doing what you want to do better than you. So go and ask for help because most people will give it to you.
SPEAKER_03:Is there one single piece of advice that really sticks out you've been given?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I mean, I told you my dad's piece of advice, you know, what you know, you can lie to everyone else, but you can't lie to yourself. And that for me extends to to all of it, you know, because um only you know how committed you are, how much work you're putting in. And I think that for me, in the especially in the world of social media where you can hide behind everything and make other excuses, and we we lie to ourselves and we put images up of a life that isn't real. You know, I think it's every now and then it's good to take account, and I probably check in with myself every couple of days go, am what I'm putting out at the world true? Am I full of shit? Um, and if the answer to any of those questions is is yes, then you know I need to have a long hard look at myself.
SPEAKER_03:So if you were to look back now and talk to your 10-year-old self, you know, how would you define success?
SPEAKER_00:Um I mean, I'd I would say how would I define success? I I don't I don't think I would try to define it. All I would say to him is is back yourself more, um, enjoy every single moment, celebrate, celebrate the highs, always look to, always look to be better. But um, you know, play with confidence because most people are nowhere near as confident as you think they are. Most people are shitting themselves, and you know, if you get an opportunity to do anything in life, do it to the best ability, risk it all because that's where the reward is.
SPEAKER_03:James, it's been an absolute pleasure having you here. Uh, I'm sure you think I say it to all my guests, but that was genuinely you know, genuinely one of the uh the most interesting uh and informative conversations uh I've I've had. You know, love, love, love the crossover, love, you know, love some of the stuff you said there and uh hope we get to do it again sometime.
SPEAKER_00:Anytime, mate, I'll be here if you turn up. If you get to keep getting the coffees, then I'll be there.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks a lot, buddy.
SPEAKER_00:My pleasure.
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