Raw Talk with Matt Haycox & Mindset Coach Jamie White

Most people won't change until the pain of staying the same hurts more than the change itself.

In this special episode, Matt sits down in Bali with his good friend Jamie White for a good old fashioned chat. Jamie, a coach who works with successful entrepreneurs on everything except the business: the stress, the relationships, the burnout, and the personal blocks that strategy and funnels can't fix. With no agenda and no script, Matt opens up about the moment that transformed his health, a comment from his ex that sent him from pushing plates away at dinner to discovering TRT, and why he now credits her comment as one of the best things that ever happened to him.

They also get into why Jamie deliberately pushes back on clients who want to hire him, whether Matt has ever actually been depressed, treating stress as a muscle you can train, the "will it kill me or bankrupt me?" framework for making fast decisions, why how you order starters predicts how you hire staff, and the case for outsourcing your flaws instead of fixing them.

Chapters
0:00 - Intro
1:27 - Bali as a Reset: Finding a New Chapter
3:20 - Health, Fitness & the Wake-Up Call
16:43 - Jamie's Coaching World: What He Actually Does
21:50 - Why Most People Don't Change
28:14 - Matt's Darkest Period: Legal Battles & Resilience
34:14 - Are You Actually Happy?
39:16 - Making Decisions Faster
46:35 - Know Yourself, Delegate the Rest
50:49 - Relationships: Stop Trying to Change People
54:05 - The Energy of Place: Bali, Dubai, New York & Ireland
57:41 - Going Home: Why Ireland Is Hard for Jamie

Follow Jamie:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jamiewhite
Website: https://jamiewhite.com/

Transcript

Pride And Happiness Check-In

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Are you proud of yourself? Overall, yeah. I mean I've I've I've done some things I'm not proud of, but overall, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Overall, yeah. Are you happy?

unknown 0:10

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

You see, if if if if happy is a binary thing, then yes, I'm happy. Okay, I don't think that's simple.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Let me ask it again. Are you happy?

SPEAKER_00 0:23

Guys, Matt Haycock's here for a special episode of Stripping Off, a different episode, a different theme. I've got my good friend Jamie White with me here in Bali. I just thought we need to get on the pod and have a chat because whilst it's normally, let's say, me interviewing and me hosting, uh, and I do always have great chats with my guests. Jamie and I, yeah, we haven't known each other that long, seven or eight months. You know, we met here on a uh on a great uh great little boat trip here in uh here in Bali, uh Rajarampat. But we actually we've been having some wild conversations over the last few months about all kinds of things, you know, whether it's life, women, money, problems, good things, bad things. Um, and so many times we say if people could hear these conversations, you know, they they'd love to listen in. So um that's what we're doing. Uh we've got no agenda, no uh no script, no plan. Um, but we're gonna have some fun. And we're probably gonna get ourselves into trouble now.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Oh Jesus, man, that's the most exciting introduction. It's like let's get ourselves into trouble. So, what's edgy for you? And I was gonna what what? What's edgy for you at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Well, I was gonna say, I hope we've actually got something to talk about now. We have such good spontaneous conversations. Now we're under the under the spotlight, we've got we've got to worry. What's edgy? I don't know what's edgy, but I feel I feel back in such a great place now. I've been um I mean obviously I told you when I came to Bali six or seven months ago, you know, I was here for a for a a bit of a change of pace and you know what I would describe as a as a new chapter in my life or you know, just a different chapter. But over the last seven months, whilst I was planning on being here all the time, I've been dragged back to uh I've been dragged back to Dubai two or three times. Uh for good things, obviously

Why Bali Feels Like Home

SPEAKER_00 2:05

I had had the baby uh back back back in the daddy game, but I can't tell you how let's say restressed I feel when I leave here, and then when I get back here, I mean literally like the second the plane touches down in Bali, I feel like a new man. And uh every time I keep bumping into people around here, they're like, Oh, you look different, you look good, you look this, and I'm like, I mean, I'm not actually doing anything any different, but I think maybe it's just the uh just the psychological feeling difference of being here. I know, I know you know we we've had a similar conversation with you because I know you've been in in South Africa recently, I think you planned planned to leave uh and then realize that Bali was your happy place and uh and can't came back again.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah, do you know? I I look at you and I I find this really interesting because so much of the time your content is it's all entrepreneurially focused with the bit of daddy love as well, which is so cute. But actually, looking at you physically, like that's exactly what I said. You walked into the studio and I went, Matt, holy fuck, you look great. Matt took his top off. I was like, well done, but like seriously, most people like they sacrifice their health, their physical well-being for their work, right? Or to be fair, they're so just tortured by all their shit in their life that they don't get the time and energy to look after themselves. Whereas you you're kind of mastering this extreme balance, I would think. Like you're working in really stressful stuff, you're living a really fun life, but at the same time, you've got a glow, a healthy glow, the likes of which some dork online that doesn't go to sleep past 10 o'clock or any of these things, you know, looks after themselves so well would champion. But you're doing this while balancing a whole load of fun around the size.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

I didn't I didn't used to, I mean that's that's for sure. I think you know, I've definitely taken I've definitely taken health and fitness uh you know very seriously over the I say very seriously, look, I I I'm certainly not, you know, waking up at five o'clock in the morning and you know and banishing alcohol and and carbs and you know drugs. I mean I don't really do them anyway, but you know missing out. Well, you are responsible for my love of mushrooms. Um but you know, I I certainly haven't taken some righteous life. I mean I've made I've made conscious decisions over the last few years, but I think uh I mean people always talk about the burnt-out entrepreneurs, don't they? And the you know, I think they they always use examples of guys who are looking, you know, £100 overweight and have shit marriages and this, that, and the other. Look, I was I was never in that position, but I I did always I think probably well certainly incorrectly value the business and the money ahead of the other things in the past, you know. Whereas, listen, I never wanted to be fat, but you know, I was a bit overweight, so it's funny, you know. I used to say to myself, I could have lost a couple of pounds, but when I look back at myself now, I could have lost a lot more than I to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

That's the cool thing because you've got so much content from such a while back. Like you you noted I met you first in Rajampad on that yacht where you were carrying a belly, a good, I would say, stone on top of what you were. I honestly think so back in January. You look ripped now. Whereas six, seven months off to edit this bit out.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

I was not carrying a belly in January.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

No, yeah, like I actually I I I think it's really important. We kind of reflect, like, yeah, you look great. And it's it's um it's hard fought for like I'm 39 now. Training 28-29 was much, much easier to to now, and also juggling all the different responsibilities and distractions. So yeah, I I I think I'm a big believer the best investments you can make is in yourself, and the better you look after yourself, the better it essentially look the better it essentially reflects itself in everything else that you do. And yeah, so I I am a big believer healthy body, healthy mind, healthy life.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

Oh, it's true. When when we did Roger, um, I mean, obviously we were we were scuba diving when we were there, but um, I think we I think we we all learned from our whoops that scuba diving burns about seven calories. I think that that that's that's that's one of the activities that you think, oh well I'm burning some calories like skiing. You think, well, I'm skiing all day. I mean, you're not I don't think you're really burning burning any calories on a ski trip either, are you? But I get I guess it shows where I've changed to over the last, you know, probably five to ten years that I was saying, because obviously I was I was with Jazz on that trip, and I was after two or three days saying to her, I'm getting grumpy with myself because I'm not doing any exercise. Uh, you know, and and I'd I'd had the occasional you know doing a few press-ups and stuff on the boat like that, but I couldn't, you know, I wasn't walking, I wasn't running, I wasn't doing any cardio. And you know, whilst you know, I I probably didn't put on loads and loads of weight, I certainly I I've gone to a stage in life where if I'm not moving, if I'm not exercising, you know, if I am eating too much bad things, but I say too much bad things because I I I could never have that life of you know just banishing everything. But if I'm not, you know, living reasonably healthy, reasonably sensible, then I I do get very grumpy.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Can I ask, is there a particular trigger over the last like let's say couple of years that accelerated you on your journey of better looking after yourself?

The Comment That Changed Everything

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Have I never told you this story? No, I'm dying for it.

SPEAKER_00 7:13

You're gonna like this one. So uh Elena, my um my ex, uh Nelly's mum. We are March 2021. So I'm I'm 40. And we've gone we've we're on a ski trip. I used to do these once a year. I'd rent a big chalet, seven or eight bedrooms, take it for like two weeks, and uh I'd take different um different investors and different clients and partners over the week. And Elena and I were there on the trip. And listen, this was I was I was gonna say this is not the when our relationship was at its best. I mean, not I'm not sure it ever was at its best, but this was you know that this was certainly in the time when uh when the balance of power was very much in her favour. Um and we were upstairs and we were having a shag, and I remember, I mean I was like, I remember like it was yesterday, that she's on top, and I shoot my mug, and she's looking down at me and she's just looking at me with absolute like disgust. And I'm like, what's up? She's like looking for me and say, seriously, what's the matter? You're like, you look really awkward. She looks at me, she just goes, I mean, you disgust me. She goes, You're just so fat and overweight, and I'm a I'm embarrassed to introduce you to my friends. I could never introduce you to my family. This is just as you've come. This is literally just as I've come.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Just as you come is one of the most penitent times for your subconscious. So when I hear this, I'm like, wow, that's cutting as deep as can be.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

It's a good job. It was not before I'd come or I might not have been able to come at it. Depends what you're into, actually. After hearing that. But I was listening to her, and it was like my immediate reaction was um well, what's the word? Not not upset, but or but you know, but like like anger, like you know, how how can you speak to me like that? And and I remember saying to her, I thought like, you know, I could lose a couple of pounds, you know, I'm sure, but I feel your delivery's a bit strong. Um, but anyway, um, you know, I was like, okay, well, I'm going to do something about this. But it was more like a like a challenge with me. It was like a not, oh, I'm sorry, baby, I want to look better for you. It's like a fuck you. All right, I'll sort this out, but I'm going to sort this out so that I can fucking kick you into touch as well. And it's when we went downstairs for dinner, because like 10 minutes later, all Jewed out the dinner table, and there's like 12 of us at dinner, and you know, you know what it's like in chalets, the chefs are serving food after food after food. And then bringing all this food out to the table, I'm just like pushing my plate away. Elaine's looking at me and she's like, You're not eating. It's too right, I'm not fucking eating. I says, How can anyone possibly want to eat after just being subjected to that uh to that abuse upstairs? I said, I don't think I'll eat again for a week. And I remember so obviously two two things happened. Obviously, one that was the kind of the the you know the shot in the heart or whatever, whatever whatever you want to call it that happened. And we were due back in Dubai a couple of days later or so. So I and I went very, very light on the food for two or three days, so I'm gonna kickstart myself into it. And I've always gone to the gym, but maybe just never taking it super seriously. But almost as if by magic, the day I land back in Dubai, I'm having a massage. And the guy who's giving me the massage says, uh, he goes, How old are you? I said, 40. He goes, Do you take um TRT? You know, do you do testosterone? I says, No, I said, look, I've I've I've heard of I've heard of it, I've just never really done it. And it was never that was anti any of that stuff. But I said, I I don't I don't do drugs, and not that I'm associating cocaine with fucking testosterone or whatever, but I've just never been someone who's like like wants an injection or puts anything into my body, so I just always kind of been not anti it, but just never wanted to try it. This guy goes, No, honestly, you should look into it. So he gives me the number of this doctor, uh, and I went off to see him. And um he kind of said, Well, what do you want? I said, I don't know, what do we all want, but less fat, more muscle, bigger dick. I don't know. What what what what what can what can you do for me? And um so he did all my blood tests and and my testosterone kind of came back as as I say low, the scale that we use, or or the the clinic I use. 800 on the scale would be uh an 18, 19-year-old lad, you know, in where you'd be in your prime. Now I was uh 425, that was what my my base rate of test was at the time about five six years ago. Which was not problematically low for a 40-year-old man, it was just I guess where you know, where you'd probably have expected it to tail down to living a you know a reasonable you know, a reasonably not amazing lifestyle. And um it's funny because if you'd have asked me, well, do you have low testosterone or you know, what's testosterone about, I would simply have just associated testosterone with shagging. It's just you know, testosterone will make you horny, and I would say, Well, I do plenty of shagging, therefore I don't have a testosterone problem. Um but then when I started to understand that testosterone was about muscle muscle growth and fat burning and bone density and and lack of training, recovery, you know, just feeling like a man, I started to obviously realize the importance of having having this lower reading. So he started me off, doctors started me off on like a on tester gel, you know, some some like a gel version of testosterone to rub on my stomach. Did that for two or three months. Uh I mean, literally within a week on bouncing out of bed, within eight or nine days. I mean, I was we were on holiday in Mexico at the time, and I was like a rapist. I mean, I was I I've always been reasonably fucking horny.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Was there an immediate reflection from her on that?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

Immediate reflection from her from Elena to say, uh did she notice a difference? She certainly noticed a difference in the horniness, yeah. I mean, uh bear in mind we were at it regularly anyway. But I mean I was literally I'd be like walking around the hotel room in Mexico with a fucking truncheon, come here, come here, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

See, there's there's look so a lot would say that her reflection to you is quite socially unacceptable. Some might say, Oh, that's really toxic of her. But I actually love these, let's say, blunt reflections that actually aren't softened down so that you properly feel them. And I think they're really important in relationship. I do a load of relational coaching, and I the one thing that a lot of people are giving out about is let's say reflections like that. But it makes a difference. It kicked you into gear. And fast forward five years, I would say you're actually disproportionately healthier than other people of your age, and that roots back to that punching conversation.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

It's it's it's it's the best thing that could have happened. You know, what was I happy at the time? Did I like the delivery? I mean, look, whether or not she was she was doing it for the right reasons is another conversation in of in and of itself. I mean, we we were not a couple that sat down and had difficult conversations, but difficult conversations for a good reason. It was never like, you know, right, we sit down on a Sunday night and we plan, and I'm gonna tell you some uncomfortable truths, and you're gonna tell me some. If I look back at the five years or whatever we were in a relationship from her, we were in a relationship together, the two best things she gave me was my daughter Nelly and the power the power of uh of wanting to be in better shape and uh and uh start injecting testosterone in my bottom. Other than that, it was a pretty shit relationship, but uh those two things I thank her for.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Yeah, I I I and I do tell that story.

SPEAKER_00 14:40

Yeah, I like a you know, obviously I think people laugh because it's uh you know, I guess like I say, a personal or a provocative story. But you know, I've told it, you know, when I'm speaking to rooms or at events or whatever, as as the power of that you can't you're not gonna change until something hurts enough to want to change. You know, you know, I remember speaking to the room

Testosterone And Taking Health Seriously

SPEAKER_00 15:00

of financial advisors where just before I'd gone on stage to do my bit, which was nothing about change, uh, the owner of this financial advice business was going around the audience saying to people, you know, what are your goals? You know, what's your 20 whatever it was, 2025 plan, 2026 plan? And this guy's like, I'm gonna lose more weight, I'm gonna be a better dad, I'm gonna be this. Um, and I remember going up on stage afterwards and said, Listen, I don't want to hijack this last guy's speech, and I'm not really here to talk about any of this. I said, But I've got to tell you, I said, because it's something that's changed my life so much. I said, I guarantee you, not one of you who has told us told us what your goals are for next year is gonna get anywhere close to fucking hitting it for the simple reason you just don't give a fuck. I said, Look, you know, you fatty, I mean you've been saying you're gonna lose weight, I guarantee you for the last 20 fucking years, and you've got about 10 stone to lose. I said, You you're you're obvious you obviously just don't care.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Mad, I'm thinking this would be such a good comedy sketch. You give a speech like, oi, it's so good. Screw the podcast, just literally live cam, you doing public brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

But but that's the thing because you know, like unless somebody wants to change, and I I forget what the expression is, but isn't it, but you're not gonna change until the pain of staying the same is worse than the pain of pain of change, and ultimately, you know, and I'm not picking on fat people, it can be anything, you know. I mean, like when you because I always look at people and think, why do you not wax your back, you hairy motherfucker? This this is the simplest fucking thing you can change.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

This is this is the disease of this, let's say, woke, bullshitty culture where everything is so softened down, and it might be nice in the short term for people. It's soft, it's gentle, it doesn't hurt, but unfortunately, it really doesn't do any good. It traps people in their shit and holds them back from actually doing anything. So, hence, I've actually started to really welcome in like these really strong reflections from my close friends or from my partner, which at times are vicious, like vicious, but enormously motivating.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Um how do you talk to clients? Because because I guess you know, for people who don't know you, you know, your space is uh it's not business coaching, is it? But it's it's coaching entrepreneurs to to find their own to do get their own blocks and things. I presume you have to talk like this.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

I I I'm lucky. I like there's a whole load of let's say business coaches that are working on strategy, our marketing, our funnels, our sales. Thank God I don't have to do that. Um I work with entrepreneurs that know exactly what they're doing, they're really, really successful, but it's come at a cost. Uh and that being life balance, stress, indecision, overwhelm. So I get to work with them on that side of things, the more personal aspects of the weights that come from a professional life. And honestly, I would say that I'm hired to look at things clinically, but in the safety of an intimate connection where it's not at a table in front of all your friends, or it's indeed, it's not your partner, but it it's me. And then in the safety of a container, going through things through and transparently, um, and really looking at, like, okay, somebody did give you that reflection that you're grossly overweight. Are you? How does that feel? And actually, you touched on it, bringing them to the point where they realize actually what they've settled for is hurting them and holding them back from what they want. That realization generally of shit, I've settled here, and I'm actually tolerating something so much less than what it is that I want. This is actually hurting me and holding me back. I'll self-correct. So people in my space talk about life-changing conversations, and that's really what it is. It's helping somebody see things more clearly, see the failings are the blocks of where perhaps they are and what they've settled for and what it's all that it's holding them back from. And once somebody realizes that cost, once somebody realizes holy shit, I have settled on this and it's costing me that, bang, you get an immediate change. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

How do people react in the beginning? I mean, I mean, you know, when when people come to you, are they are they ready for the change? Are they ready to be spoken to?

SPEAKER_02 19:06

I I find it really interesting. Firstly, half my clients are men, all of whom say, My wife found you and has been telling me to work with you for the last month, two months, three months, four months. Uh that's like every guy, which is odd, and I need to hack my marketing perhaps a little bit better. Because they like your little floppy-haired ads on uh on on Instagram. Yeah, I but um honestly, there's there's a there's a kind of I don't want to say like a defeatedness, but it's a quite a hard thing when you come to the conclusion that you don't know what you don't know. You've been following your path as best as you can or as best as you like, but it's not necessarily serving you. And and you have to seek help. Like that that that that's a like shit, you know, I'm I'm I'm working as best as I can, but it's not serving me as well as I want. I need to look at other options. So oftentimes there's this odd energy of like overwhelm, frustration, lack of time, indecision, and like upset, actually. But uh I want to get through this, and I'd I'd love somebody by my side are are are backing me up to work through this, and and in that space, there's the room or the grounds for a really beautiful conversation where it can be like first and foremost, here well done for not settling. That's the thing, most people settle. But if if somebody's gone through all that but was like, I don't want to settle, brilliant. There's the forging of a really nice relationship. Actually, on my side, it's a bit of an odd one, and it's it's so counterintuitive. There's a lot of people out there that would just sell, sell, sell as much as you can. My thing is actually you have to push back and push back. Somebody says they want to work with you. Really? Do you really want to work? Do you really want this? Yeah, yeah, of course I do. I'll pay this much. No, actually, you kind of need to pay twice that much. Why? Because you really want it. Essentially, what you do is you need to leverage somebody's want and desire for change to actually have them make it. As in, like, I will pay this much, I will dedicate this much, I will open myself up. Great, well, well, then that's the catalyst for change. Um, so there's a bit of an interesting state that somebody comes to you, a bit of a process that you need to put somebody through to make sure that they really want it, because if they get it too easily, they won't value it. And unfortunately, they won't have the conviction to follow through to essentially make long overdue decisions in their life. But once they pass that through, then essentially what you're doing is you're forming a partnership. And that's what I'd say. I'd say if someone is hiring me, I am a partner for them through whatever matters most. And although predominantly it's entrepreneurs, oftentimes like people have been overfocusing on their business and it's taken a toll on the relationship, on their parenting, on their self care, are so many other areas of life. And the the the kind of mis misunderstanding is they're like let's just focus on the business. In actual fact, generally the business is a distraction for the real shit that's going on in their lives. When they sort the real shit that's going on in their lives, they get so much energy back that naturally flows into their business. And so you help somebody with a rocky relationship, they double their business. You help somebody enjoy parenting rather than being burdened by it, they double their business. You help somebody take care of themselves better, lose the weight, look better, feel better, ultimately speaking, make better decisions, they 10x their business. That's my kind of part.

SPEAKER_00 22:26

But I think the reality though is that, you know, most people, I mean the vast majority of people, just don't care enough to make the change. You know, that they they they think they do, but they're happy with whatever that is, you know, whether it's being overweight, whether it's being in a stale relationship, you know, whether you know business is not not as good as it could be, because none of these changes, not none of the changes, uh not trying to put you and people like you out of a job, none of the changes are complicated.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

The work is actually really easy. Uh the one thing that you said there though that I would disagree with is that actually people do really care. But you mean they convince themselves that they don't feel better. No, it's that they're so overwhelmed and drained by life that they don't have time to look beyond the horizon and see how their patterns, their decisions aren't serving them. They literally they wake up late, they're chasing their day, they're pulled from one thing to the next thing to the next thing to the next thing, and before they know it, they're just about able to get to sleep with less hours than they need for the next day. That's the reality for most people. In that space, you can't you don't have the time to actually analyze how you're living and reorientate things. You don't have the spaciousness, you don't have the financial capacity to. Like my work is a real privilege, actually. You know, like most people who are so bent over backwards by life, they can't. They actually can't afford to look at life differently. They can't they don't have the space to, and and it's really, really sad. And it's it's not until things get like slight life or death bad that perhaps people can make a few really big decisions to break free. But oftentimes it's that middle where most people are that doesn't allow for it.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

You know, the thing as well, I mean, to me, it just comes down to a down to a matter of priorities or or or or false priorities as well. Um, I'll give you two examples of things, you know. I mean, um both conversations that have been real in my life with people, and not with me, but for the other people. So another overweight guy I know, grossly overweight. Um, you know, we were sat at a dinner, he's there with his missus, lovely, pretty, attractive girl. And I was talking to him saying, What's going on with the weight? And he's like, Great friend. I love this, that's why mad. I'm like, oh, brilliant. We need people that give us this shit. And he's like, Oh, well, you know, not not much. Yeah, I've not been losing any. I'm saying, so have you been going to the gym? No, no, I've been I've been busy for the gym. What about the boxing? I I saw you doing a bit of boxing before. How's it how's the buttons carrying on with the boxing? Oh no, the the boxing is it's a long way away, it's like 40 minutes from me. Can't find some a bit closer to home? No, no. So what about the um the testosterone doctor? I introduced you to him. Oh, it's a pain taking all those injections. What about this? And I went through about seven or eight things and I'm getting depressed just hearing the fucking answers. So let me ask you another question. I mean, does it not bother you that you're grossly overweight? He just looks at me and goes, nah, he goes, I don't really care, to be honest. I said, well, then end of conversation. I says, because because I can suggest all the things in the world, but until you actually give a fuck, then you know what what what is going to change? Nothing's gonna if you are genuinely not bothered about the way you look, then nothing's gonna change. And another I'd say different but similar thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:52

No, no, hold that actually that example because that's a really good example, and there's a hole in that.

Depression Spirals And Breaking Points

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Um that person is depressed.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

I I would I would I I would I would say you can't possibly be happy like that, you're just convincing yourself you are.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

So actually, depression is so unbelievably misunderstood, and in that depression debilitates you from taking action, the small things become really hard, and you go on essentially a downward spiral where things get even harder, you get more and more sedate, more and more indecisive, it becomes harder to take action. But if you can sit with the depression, well, a lot of people they kind of like they they kind of hold themselves in that state. Well, in actual fact, if you can just go through the process of depression, generally speaking, what it will do is it will bring you to a shit or get off the can moment of like this is how bad this is going to get, what are you gonna do about it? And it in that can fire up a big decision. So, you know, for example, say somebody finds themselves in a toxic relationship, and they let's say they fight the toxic relationship and they try to pretend it's great, and it just keeps going around in this plateau. But an actual thing if you can just actually just accept it gets so bad to the point that there's an internal reflex that goes, fuck you, actually, fuck you, I'm fucking out of here. Brilliant. That's depression on its right cycle where it brings you to this point of action. Most people fight it though, and they fight it and they stay in the loop of depression, and this person is let's say stuck in that. Now, I I hopefully something will point, come to some point where there's a trigger and there's an action taken, but until that point, the person keeps just descending and descending and descending and descending. And I find this really interesting that again, you asked about when people come to me, why did I emphasize so much that I push them back? Are they ready to come to that point where they say, Fuck you? If they are brilliant, you'll do great work together.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

If they're not, they still need to go on their depression, their depression, and keep are we are we kind of saying the same thing, but without me, let's say defining it as as depression? Because you're saying you'll keep going in that spiral until something's changed and it's like fuck you, I'm I'm doing it. And I guess I'm saying, I mean, obviously I don't understand the depression side of things, but I'm saying until you want to fucking change, not not nothing's going to change.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

It's really interesting. You said you don't understand depression. Would you say you've never had depression?

SPEAKER_00 28:28

Um I would I mean I don't know, I I don't know what we define depression as, you know. Have I had dark days over my life? I'd probably say I've had my darkest days over the last couple of years. Um have I considered myself depressed? I mean, I don't know, that's it depends who you look at it. Like the you know, 18 months ago, I mean, you know, as as you know, and it's not the world's best kept secret, I've been embroiled in a pretty smelly legal battle for the last two two, two and a half years, and there was periods of time, two or three months at a time, where I was ill and I w I could just I I was just never getting better. I don't mean I'm what does that illness look like? Well I was gonna say I don't mean I'm sat in a hospital bed fucking on a ventilator, but what I mean is I had flu, I couldn't kick, you know, headaches I could I I I couldn't kick, uh, and I'm not an ill person. Constipation or diarrhea? I don't think so, no. Neither. Interesting. I can't remember.

SPEAKER_02 29:27

I mean, I I like a good people uh I don't know. There's a great space called Mind Body Medicine where essentially it reflects every symptom to kind of an emotional issue, and generally speaking, men, we hold on to shit, right? Our we can't literally literally can't hold on to it, so it can becomes can be sometimes quite uh identifying in terms of where where you're at. But like you you're you're a fascinating person, man. Like it's a lot of lot of complete losers that have podcasts that are their lives are so fucking boring that there's nothing to take from their podcasts, but you are fucking fascinating. And you've lived an enormity of extremes. I I there's a part of me that thinks I need to share, but given how much you've shared on this podcast, I'm like, I don't know, he probably has shared it all, so anyone listening knows. But it's it's funny that you can't actually like you you could say, Oh, I've gone through absolute hell, but you can't say that actually you've experienced, let's say, long-term depressive states over months. That just hasn't been the case for you. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

I mean, like I I always think I I probably always say that I'm upbeat, oh I'm optimistic, and I but I think the reality is, you know, if I look back over the last 20-30 years, you know, it's probably more putting a brave face on than than the fact that I don't get down or I don't don't get depressed. And I think like if if we talk about what I was saying a minute ago, you know, about being literally ill for you know two or three months at a time, I I guess that's probably the same kind of situation I've had in the rest of my life. It's just that it was longer and harder and and probably harder for me to put a brave face on because I mean everyone can tolerate different things and so much, can't they? And I you know, I always look at stress as a muscle and you know, dealing with negative negative things things as a muscle. And I guess you know, the more you train that muscle, you know, the more it happens to you, the more um what's the word, resil resilient you become to dealing with this is exactly true.

SPEAKER_02 31:26

That essentially the more stress you can hold, the more success you can invite into your life. The whole world is, let's say, obsessed with this idea of I want a stress-free life. But the only thing is that's impossible. And if you don't train yourself to be good at metabolizing and dealing with stress, unfortunately you get worse at it. And so you become more sensitive and life gets on top of you all the better. But you, by the sense of what you've just shared, have constantly been immersing yourself in stress, building your stress capacity, which allows you to go through bigger shit and go through it faster, then.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Right? But I think I think as well as there's two sides or a couple of learnings, you know. Do I think that you know people should man up and and get better at dealing with stress and go through things? I I do. Good, great. We should. Absolutely. But uh because I think you know the reality is you know, most people are soft. They think they're soft, they think they've experienced stress, I mean they don't know what a fucking bad day is, you know? They've got a parking ticket and ruins their fucking day. I mean, please.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

If you went to a let's say a protest of woke, vegan anarchist types, and you were actually really challenged into that, you'd find that I would say a lot of that comes from being overly soft and overly sensitive as a result. And if only people actually challenge themselves a little bit more, they'd be less sensitive and we'd be less plagued by their drama.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

But what I would say in my own personal circumstances is you know, whilst I've let's say been good at dealing with stress and getting deeper and deeper amounts of stress I can cope with, a lot of it's been self-inflicted, a lot of it's been unnecessary. And you know, when when you were saying, you know, everyone wants a stress-free life and an easy life, and it's just an unrealistic work, you know, unrealistic concept. But I do think we can control the levels of stress that we that we bring to ourselves and and not and not do things unnecessarily. And I know in my personal circumstance, you know, that means things like you know, being unfocused, taking on too many different businesses, saying yes to too many things, yeah, for example.

SPEAKER_02 33:28

But as you're saying this, I'm actually thinking perhaps this is your secret source. Perhaps you, who has self-inflicted a whole ton of drama, was actually using that, or the byproduct of that was a greater stress capacity, so that when other shit that wasn't necessarily self-inflicted came along, you sailed through it, unlike so many others that would have been bowled over it. Why? Because you just created so much shitty drama in your life anyway. This is perhaps your edge.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Perhaps, but you know, if I could rew rewire the last 25 years, you know, would I do things differently? Yeah, I would for sure. Would you though? I I would. Well, hold that. Hold that because I would say that listen, I'm not someone who who goes down these roads of what you know, would I do things differently? I mean, like if if someone's if you want to ask me the hypothetical question, yes, I'd do things differently, but then again, I also very much live in the present and the future and say I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for everything that I've been in for the last year.

SPEAKER_02 34:25

So hold that. Can you sit here right now? Are you proud of yourself?

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Overall, yeah. I mean, I've I've had done some things I'm not proud of, but overall, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Overall, yeah. You happy.

unknown 34:37

All right.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

You see, if if if if happy is a binary thing, then yes, I'm happy. Okay, so that's simple.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Let me ask it again. Are you happy? To experience happiness. Yes. Yeah. Okay, Matt, there's not actually a lot of people that can say yes. There's not a lot of people that can sit there and go, I'm proud of myself.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

And so as much as but do you not think it that there's a there's an oversimplification to that by making it a binary yes or no, are you proud, yes or no, are you happy, yes or no?

SPEAKER_02 35:04

And if we actually started to put it on a scale, we could be what is very well described as complete dickheads and argue that point, right? But it actually is a nice little quick check-in, are you happy? Just to see how somebody reacts, just to see what somebody has. You could absolutely nullify the question, go for it. But for you to sit there and say, Yeah, I'm proud of myself, and yeah, I am happy, it's hugely indicative of some really positive shit. And I think it's um I think it's important to acknowledge that and pat yourself on the back because if you shoot out over the course of the course of your day and ask a few people like that and see how many people will really struggle and cannot say yes, you it's all the more reason to take some pride.

Choosing Happiness And Anchoring It

SPEAKER_00 35:46

And what I also say though is I do, but I do think I've always said that happiness is a choice. And you know, what when you go and ask those people in the in the streets today and they say they're not happy, I would say they're not happy because they've chosen to be not happy because of of how how we deal with the different things. So, like again, let's you know, look at my last two or three years of horrendous shit, where you know, many people would have probably topped themselves after fucking three weeks, three weeks of it, never mind three years of it. But I have a decision to make every day that you know, am I happy, am I gonna look at the good things, am I gonna look at the positives, or am I gonna look at the negatives? And business has been shit, certain friendships, let's call them, have been shit, monetary issues have been shit, but I come home to to kids that I love and am excited for, or to a smaller number of reduced friends uh that you know have shown me some unexpected kindness or loyalty or whatever, and I can choose to focus on those bits, or I can choose to focus on on the on the on the bad bits. And I just think A, that happiness is a choice, that's what I want to pick you know, I want to pick, and B, in another 40 years time when I'm lying on my deathbed, you know, am I gonna remember the shit times or am I gonna remember the good times? I think I'm gonna remember the good times.

SPEAKER_02 37:03

Yeah, you you strike me as somebody that really does prioritize fun and can do it in an almost medicinal capacity. Like for me, I remember being young and feeling shit, right? And in that shit, wanting to cry but not being able to cry. So thinking of all the other things that perhaps might trigger me to cry, right? So that's a very simple kind of thing that a lot of people do is they make a bad situation worse by lobbying on everything on top. We sometimes don't think about this in a solo sense, but we definitely think about it in relationship, you know, when you're giving out to having a fight with your partner and suddenly your partner doesn't just tell you the one thing that you're shit about, but tells you everything that you've been shit about for 10 years. And I realize like it it is interesting how oftentimes we can indulge in emotional states. And that's very powerful of like, if you're not feeling sad enough, make yourself feel sadder. But people don't reverse it and do the opposite of like, actually, screw it. What can I do to make myself feel happy? And like there's the simplest exercise. I'd say for the last 20 years, I've been trying to hack, I've been trying to figure out what are the simplest things people can do that make the biggest impacts. And one of them comes off the back of Joe Dispens's work, who's all about rewiring your subconscious, essentially like the automatic way you live that runs in the background. The simple thing is just anchoring into different states. For example, sake, if every night before you go to sleep and every morning before you wake up, you think about two or three things that you're proud of, or two or three things that you're happy about, it almost anchors that feeling inside of you. And instead of looking at the world from like, oh, I'm so stressed, or oh, I'm so depressed, or I'm so down, you have this anchored state of happiness inside you that you've taken a moment to like, I'm happy about this in my life, and I'm happy about that in my life. It changes the way you look at your life. It changes the way you go about your day. Instead of looking for all the bad things that will back up the story of you feeling bad in yourself, you actually almost unconsciously start to see all the little things that make you feel that little bit happier and that little bit more proud. That's a choice, that's an exercise that you actually talked about earlier. You said I kind of feel like our emotional body is almost like a muscle that we can train. The more we train certain states, the more they show up in our life. The more we anchor into happiness, the more we happy we are. The more we depress ourselves, the more depressed we get. And it it makes so much sense when you think about people generally speaking, bond over shit subjects, drama and crap, right? You can turn that all on its head by starting to just bring more happiness into your life.

A Simple Filter For Decisions

SPEAKER_00 39:32

I also think is important, which features in um happiness uh or or or sadness, and I think something I'm very good at is making decisions. Whatever the whatever those decisions are. I think too many people, particularly nowadays, you know, they're so indecisive about everything and the and the and they worry so much about making a wrong decision. I'm not talking about, you know, whether or not we get married or not here, whether or not we, you know, we you know jump off a bridge. People who get paralyzed over, should we go to this restaurant for lunch, or I can't I can't decide about about you know going to this place. And you know, I mean I have a pretty simple framework on things, which is if making the wrong decision is making the wrong decision going to kill me or is it going to bankrupt me? And if the answer is no to either of those two questions, then just make a decision and go and go forward with it.

SPEAKER_02 40:26

Yeah, I've actually I'm really glad you touched on this. I've been dying to ask you, how do you so this is that is your first filter with regards to making quicker decisions? Because I too believe most people rob themselves from their learnings by staying in this indecisive state, which is so energetically draining, when you essentially put your life on pause while you're thinking, do you go A or B? Whereas either way you're gonna learn. And so the quicker you make that decision, the quicker you learn. And if you learn, you're going to progress. So the first thing that you do is you strip something down and go, is this gonna make me go broke or is this gonna see me die?

SPEAKER_00 41:00

Well, well, listen, I don't even look at it as stripping it down. I I think I think I've I've done it so often that that framework is almost just invisible and and and and it and it just kind of happens. Um so there's it's very rare I would have a decision nowadays. Let's this might sound like a trivial example, but I do think it's indicative of the way we can extrapolate things out. We went for dinner the other night, and uh there's a lot of nice-looking starters on the menu.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

And going for dinner, by the way, is a seriously fun experience with Matt. If he ever does it, like if it ever is a product that, you know, once every month Matt does a dinner, go. Please go. It is so much fun.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Well, when it comes to food, yeah, so let's talk about restaurants because I I mean I know so many people who get paralyzed over two things about restaurants. One, which restaurant do we go to? You know, should we go to this or should we not go? What if it's a bad place where we says, he's like, well, listen, first of all, let's use a bit of logic around it. You've seen a lot of people say good things about it. It looks like a high-end place in a good location, this, that, and the other. So logic would dictate it's probably going to be good. If it's bad, what does bad mean? Are you going to be violently puking up in the corner of the restaurant? Highly unlikely. Worst case, you just don't go back again. Right? That's that that's that's one thing. I know this sounds so trivial, but you know, we can we can analogise this over onto onto other things because I know so many people who literally get paralysed over that kind of a decision. Second thing, we look at the menu. Oh, but do I have this or do I have that? Do I have that? Just order them, order all of the fucking starters. And you know, like we go the other night, I think we've got seven starters, eight starters, because well, that looks a bit nice, that looks a bit nice. Every one of these starters is like four quid. Does it does it really matter? What if we waste it? If we waste it, we fucking waste it. You know, like what what what are we overcomplicating these things for? And and you know, people listening to this might be thinking, you're talking about fucking garlic bread in a restaurant, what has that possibly got to do with you know with business and with life and with some of the big decisions I have to make? Well, I think ultimately everything is a compounding of something else. And if you can't decide what fucking restaurant to go to, if you can't decide what starters to eat in a restaurant, then what possible chance have you got of deciding your life partner of making a right decision to hire someone or not to hire someone in a business? You know, same thing like let's let's make it something more important for someone listening. Do I hire this person or do I not hire this person? Well, you know, like we said about the restaurant. Have we had some references from that person? Have you got a decent radar of what of what people are like? You've interviewed them, you think they're gonna be okay. So you then got a decision to make. I hire them, what happens if you hire them and it goes good? Well, if you hire them and it goes good, fucking happy days. If you hire them and it goes bad, you're gonna know very quickly if they're bad. And then you're gonna fire them. And it's gonna cost you a couple of months' salary and a bit of time. So let's let's call that a 10 grand decision or a 15 grand decision. Where does that 15 grand decision sit in your life? I mean, if you have no money in a terrible business, it's probably a catastrophic situation and we probably wouldn't be having this conversation together anyway. But if you are a six or seven-figure business owner, you know, to make a 10 or 15 grand mistake is not going to fucking kill you. Whereas the upside of making that right hire is potentially, you know, is potentially infinite. Um and for me that's that's the barometer on all of these things.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

I I love the way you've broken that example down of like taking a restaurant to a hire. Um in my work, you really need to figure somebody out very quickly. And what I find is that how somebody does one thing is actually, generally speaking, how they do everything. But you also, you were like, when I was trying to break down your philosophy, let's say, or your approach, your framework for making quick decisions, you were like, oh, well, it's it's pretty much on autopilot here, so I don't really know. Most geniuses, right? I'm not calling you a genius, but most geniuses don't acknowledge their genius because it runs automatically. It's so finely tuned and so integrated that it actually just flows, that they take it for granted. This happens, by the way, a lot of the time, good coaches, trainers, consultants, they they don't price themselves appropriately because their skill set is just so naturally ingrained and it flows that they they they haven't necessarily had to, let's say, concretely work so hard for it that they don't price it as they should. It's a great hack if you're looking for good consultants sometimes. But my work a lot of the time is helping people actually understand their natural internal framework for certain areas of their life. Because what happens is it runs on autopilot for some aspects of their life, but it doesn't in others. So somebody can be an expert communicator with their partner, but when it comes to telling a harsh truth to an employee, they just can't, even though the skill sets are the exact same, but because they're compartmentalized, they don't match them over. You give somebody the framework that they use relationally, you apply it to the professional circumstances, and it flows. I think that is

Outsourcing Perfection And Relationship Friction

SPEAKER_02 46:00

so interesting. And what you've what you've nailed there of that how somebody does one thing is generally how they do everything, was the big epiphany moment for me of like, oh, I do this here. The example was hilarious. A girlfriend at the time said, Jamie, do you realize you leave every uh every drawer open in the kitchen, every shelf? That's me. And she was like, It's kind of quite interesting to diff the different subjects you have. You have so many uh plates that you're spinning simultaneously, are areas of your life that you're running, some of which you don't bring to completion. And it's it's so sometimes like that there's these subtle clues in our life that help us see one thing to the next. And it I I firmly believe that all we need is this perspective, all we need is just to see something that little bit more clearly and we autocorrect. It's funny that that was a huge autocorrect moment for me.

SPEAKER_00 46:51

I would take those at that off in a slightly different direction as well, in terms of concentrating on the things that matter. Now, obviously, you you're using as an example of unfinished things that you're leaving them open, but I also think you know people care too much about things that are ultimately an important, as an example, like your drawers are open. I leave a Hansel and Gretel trail of clothes behind me. I love using towels, you know. I mean, I will use five towels when one will do. I come in from the gym, I take my socks off immediately, I dump them there, I'll take a t-shirt off, I'll dump it there. And I can't say how many times people go, Oh, you're messy, you know, or you know, you need to pick this up, or you need to tidy this up. It's like we can talk about it, we can just accept. I've got no fucking interest whatsoever of ever learning to pick my socks up. So we're gonna get a cleaner who's gonna follow me around and pick my socks up for me, and you and I are gonna stop talking about it because I've got much better things to spend my time on, and you should have well, it's not that you shouldn't worry about that, but let me find a different way for you to not worry about it because I don't want to, you know, I want to do the things that make me happy, I don't want to have to rewire my life to pick my socks up to keep you happy. But let's fix it a different way.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

That's a huge, huge, huge um point. So, what I hear is that you realize that you have what could be perceived as like a failing. I'm messy, right? And rather than burdening yourself of trying to correct and make something more socially acceptable, either you know, to the world or to your partner or to whomever, you're like, actually, do you know what? That's a fuck that's a fucking stress for me to deal with. I'm just gonna hire somebody to look after that and I'm gonna concentrate on doing what I do really well and earning really well and enjoying less stress as a result. That's the path a lot of hyper successful people go on. On the other side of that, if you want to know, we're here in Bali, what most of the Bali gang have gone on is they do something that is screened as like unacceptable or not good enough, and they take it to heart and they burden themselves with the stress of auto-correcting, right? And for whatever reason, that simple task that most people do, you know, blindly is just you know, clean up after themselves, it's difficult for them, but they commit themselves to working through it. The only thing is that they distract themselves from their job or from their relationship or from their life as a whole with this overinflated perfectionism or micromanaging out of an area of their life that shows no return. In actual fact, it serves a net negative. This is the really interesting thing about the whole wellness space, is that most of it is taken up by people over inflate sorry, over investing themselves in perfectionism, micromanaging, and a net negative. They're distracting themselves from their lives. I find that so interesting. It's like, is this actually a self-serving pattern or is it actually negatively impacting? Nine times out of ten in the wellness world, and particularly here in Bali, where a lot of us go to distract ourselves, most people are serving these net negatives. And I I love what you've just shared there because I very easily could say, Oh, you're such a dickhead. Look at you dropping your towels off and your socks and having cleaner pickup after you, but in actual fact, it's like, wait, no, you recognise who you are, you're working with who you are, and you're getting on with what you do best. There's something really special in that that I don't think is as aware as it should be. How does that land?

SPEAKER_00 50:24

No, no, I it makes sense. I also say, you know, and and if you think I am a dickhead, then you can try and change me, you can moan about me, but you're making your you you're you're interfering with your own happiness by by trying to change something on me that I just don't care about.

SPEAKER_02 50:42

This is the heart of relational therapy, is this where a partner, you know, two people fall in love with each other, right? And then start trying to massively change each other. If they can actually just step back and instead of burdening people with all these little auto-corrections, be like, Oh, you're spending, we need to get you a cleaner, and start supporting each other through things rather than burdening each other each other, it's a dramatic shift relationally.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

I mean, you know, I was at the gym the other day, I was talking talking to this lady there, and she's you know, she's obviously got some horrendous issues with her husband or ex well, soon to be ex-husband, whatever he is. And she was I love that. Soon to be ex. I started talking to her on there. But she's um, you know, she was asking me a lot of questions about like what's my view on something as you know, I I'm a guy, you know, let's say I've got kids or I've been in a divorce or whatever, you know. Why why why is he doing this? Why is he doing the other? What do you think about this? What do you think about the other? And I said to her, and listen, I'm not someone who wants to get stuck into hours and hours of inane conversation with you know with third parties at the best of times. But I said to her, let me ask you one question. I said, Do you want to get back with this guy? She goes, No, absolutely fucking not. I said, So then let's just finish the end of the conversation. I says, because I can't tell you why. I said, I can't tell you why he's done this, can't tell you why he's done the other, can't tell you how he's gonna behave next week, can't tell you if he's gonna start spending more time with the kids. All you can do is decide, you can't change him. You can't even fucking understand him. All you can do is decide how you react to the things he does. You know, how are you gonna make your life better? How are you gonna spend more time with the kids? How are you gonna how are you gonna do whatever it may be?

SPEAKER_02 52:22

There's a really there's a really good coaching technique in what you just shared there, right? I think a lot of us as humans, we distract ourselves by trying to understand a situation or trying to correct a situation from what we're feeling from the situation. And if we can act A, instead of being like trying to figure out why did somebody do that, actually be like, it's horrible. And regardless of why somebody did it, it still doesn't excuse them. It was shit. And once you can feel that as well, it's what are you gonna do about it? Most people distract themselves from A, the feeling and B, the what are you gonna do about it by just trying to understand the situation, the psychology, the this, the that, the next. You can save somebody an enormous amount of time in their grief or their challenges or their healings, but just doing exactly what you said. Forget about all of that. Blunt question do you want to be with them or not? I would have said before that how is all of this making you feel horrendous, stressed, overwhelmed, blah blah blah. Cool. Do you want to be with them or not? No. Life-changing conversation. Ten minutes rather than perhaps ten days, ten weeks, ten years. It's great.

SPEAKER_00 53:23

I think what what why do people do it? I don't know. You know, are people innate innately built as overthinkers, or is it because emotional decisions, like you know, could people have that conversation in business and be more black and white about it because it's it's about money as opposed to people? You know, d is it is it different when something's emotional? I I don't know, but uh I guess you know, like like like you'd said earlier, um I forget what I forget what it was was we were saying, but you know, whether it's this or this or this or this, you know, the frameworks are same, yeah the the um the game plans are same.

SPEAKER_02 53:57

You generally find people are made up by what I would call like these universal principles that apply themselves in every aspect of their life. They generally don't see them because they compartmentalize their life. My personal life, my professional life, my social life, my relational life. But in actual fact, it's the core kind of principles that are running the show behind every one of them. And if you can help somebody see them, they can apply them where they can't, so they can apply them in the blind spots and move through them much quicker.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

It's cool, shit.

Place Energy And The Comfort Zone Trap

SPEAKER_00 54:23

You talk about the Bali people, you know, saying like the other people who've come here are like this and like the other. I mean, do you do you think the Bali, I mean I think by the Bali people, to be clear, we're we're talking about expats in but in butt in butt in Bali here, you know. I mean, do you think there's a a very different culture or ecosystem or mindset in Bali than there is in other places you've spent time, you know, in Dubai, in Ireland, in South Africa?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

There's a really great space called astrocartography, which kind of speaks to the idea that every land has its energy. And regardless of who you are and how you are, when you go there, you'll just feel a little bit different. Now, that sounds wishy-washy and very bally, but if you were to go to New York, for me anyway, as soon as I get off a plane, I'm like, I want to do deals, I want to work, and I want to go out till all hours. Interesting. You go to a bita, you want to be bold and hedonistic, you want to dance. There's just something about the energy of that land that strikes up that in you. Um, Bali's energy is healing. So a lot of people come here to heal. A lot of people misunderstand the healing journey. They think perhaps it's like facial spas, massages, and shit like that. Oftentimes you actually have to be confronted with the shit that is leading to the necessity to be healed. So Bali can be quite confronting and challenging. Um, but as a result of that, if you can work your way through, pretty healing. I actually look at the world through this lens. I'm like, what do I want to feel right now? Where should I be as a result? So, for example, like you mentioned, I went to Cape Town. Cape Town is the Africa is the idea of go back to your roots, go back to your foundation, rebuild your foundation, and Cape Town in particular, with its ridiculously beautiful nature, really good food, and very wholesome people has this, I think, rebuilding effect, certainly for myself. Dubai, on the other hand, is like the new frontier. It's like where all these entrepreneurial types, these energetic types are going, some of which are doing really well, some of which are completely fraudulent, and some of which are complete bullshitters, but they're all in this melting pot there, doing incredible stuff, right? So the world has all these different ecosystems or all these different energies that if you're sensitive to, you can drop into to complement where wherever it is in your life. So let's say, for example, say, I'm plagued by issues. I need to figure that out. Go to Bali. It will confront you with your shit, and if you can work through it, you'll work through it. I feel a bit out of balance, I feel a bit out of sorts, I've perhaps done too much healing. Cool, go to Cape Town, get strong. I feel strong, cool, go to New York, make your money, or go to Dubai, do really well. That's the way I kind of approach it. There is an enormous stereotype for here in Bali, and uh it's quite an interesting land because it's, you know, there's such a nomadic population coming from all over the world. People have to travel to get here. Uh and if you sit around the table, it's like, why are you here? Broken heart, burnout, uh, social rejection, um, our feeling of just complete isolation and needed something new. Uh, and what's complemented very, very well here is an abundant lifestyle. There's like such a cult, sorry, such a climate here that allows such an abundance of good food, good land, good lifestyle, um, that people can actually come back to themselves a little bit, remember why they're here. I think that that is the healing point of like, what did you want to do when you were younger? Why are you not doing that? Well, that those are the blocks, those are the issues, but a lot of people come back to themselves here, and there's this fun and there's this lightfulness and there's this playfulness, which I which I which I love. But uh how does it feel going back to Ireland for you? So hard. You don't you don't want to do it. Well, my mum and dad are there, and I love my mum and dad, and they're uh my family and fr friends that I grew up with are all there, but um Ireland is hard uh for me. For others, they they find it's amazing. Um, but yeah, I I I find it very, very difficult because when I go back, I can see so clearly the environment that led to so many of the challenges that I've had to work so hard to work through. Um, nothing will shape you like your environment and the company you keep. And so unfortunately, we generally speaking aren't who we are. We are are a product of our environment and the company we keep. And for some, that's brilliant. For some, it forges them into these fantastic uh beings. But for me, around 26, 27, I was confronted by uh a whole lot of personal challenges in terms of I'm I'm not really happy with how I am, I'm not very proud of how I am, and things aren't materializing the way I would like. And it took me um the spaciousness and detachment of leaving Ireland to really come back to myself. To I I say, like that, that yeah, find find yourself or come back to yourself. But then in coming back home, have to almost hold on dearly to who I am versus the influencing factors of those around me and the environment I'm in. And that's highly triggering. And I can find myself just sitting in what is normalized for everybody else, and for everybody else, it's just like unquestionable. I'm raising issue, which is disruptive. Somebody's like, What's wrong with you? Why can't you just be happy? We're all happy. And I'm like, Yeah, you're all happy because this is all that you know, and this is what you've settled into. And I fucked off and I experienced a whole load of different, I see things differently now, and that's so disconnecting as well. So I find myself in these tough conversations with friends, which are like, what's your problem? And to even explain it is so alien and so difficult that most of the time I find myself just trying to put so much of that on pause to just allow myself enjoy a nice moment catching up with an old friend, but it's not nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

It's really I don't think they want to understand either. But I think if if they you know they they kind of need to find a reason to justify stay staying where they're staying.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

That's the the thing is people can create bubbles of happiness, comfort zone, and it's and and it creates this false sense of confidence, this false sense of contentness, because you're in your comfort zone, it's happy, it's familiar. The only thing is that the longer you spend in your comfort zone, the more contracted your life gets. That might not make sense, but it does when you think about it. If you spend too long in bed, it becomes harder to get out of bed, right? We know it. You spend too long at home and it becomes harder to leave your home. Actually, if you spend a few too many days at home, you'll start developing anxiety at the simple thought of leaving your door, right? Too much time in your comfort zone is contractive. Beyond your comfort zone, there's this lovely space which is called the zone of proximal development, which is a little bit out of your comfort zone where things are a little bit challenging, but you can manage it and so you grow. You go beyond that and you start to burn out, where you take on too much and you recess and you need to come back to your comfort zone. Most people stay too long in their comfort zone. And generally speaking, when you meet people that have stayed put, they are in their comfort zone. That can become, as I said, quite like creative of let's say a false sense of confidence and a judginess of anybody who's doing different, especially those that are edging between their zone of proximable development and burnout, where it may look like, geez, every time I look at that person, they're having a breakdown, they're crying, they're out of sorts. It's like, yes, but why? Because they're way out of their comfort zone, they're really adventuring, they're really living, don't misunderstand it. I find a lot of the time as well, I'd be misunderstood, and I hate having to explain myself to somebody who, like you said, they just can't relate because why? You've been stuck in your comfort zone for so fucking long, and the the emotion will flow through me because I really, yeah, I found myself at home, uh, really, really isolated, really burdened, really like having to just tactically bite my tongue amongst somebody that just can't relate, can't understand, and it's sad. And and the really difficult part of that is they're the very people that you would love to get it the most. Like I would kill to get to share some of the adventures that I've had over the last 10 years with those that I have missed out on adventuring with over the last 10 years, but it just doesn't connect. And uh and and so coming home to Ireland is really difficult. Ram Das says that if you think your spiritual go home and spend a week with your family, I'm going home to spend about three months with my family, family. But it's very true to that saying. It's it's hard, and it's and it's not just hard for me, it's hard for them because they loved me years ago. And they, you know, some of them will work hard to love me now, but it is hard work. You know, when when somebody that you love goes, you don't see them for a few years, they come back, uh, and there's so much that is different. That's disorientating for them too. So this uh yeah, that that that coming home journey is is is a lot.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:17

Well, don't go home for too long because three months is a long time. I'm gonna miss you, and uh, I'm glad we got to have this conversation before

Final Thoughts And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

you went. Uh, and we're gonna have to start making these uh making these a regular occurrence once you uh once you get back into town. Love it, dude. It's a pleasure. Listen, it's been super fun, matey. Thank you. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

Boom, boom.